Contax, Pentax, Mamiya, Bronica 645 SLR - why NOT?

As I am still fiddling around the weights, I am trying to pout together list of them for similar setup configuration:
- body
- 120 back
- AE prism
- standard lens
- motor winder (or right hand grip) to make it a "true" SLR

So far I managed to put together following numbers:

645:
- Pentax 645N - 1640 g
- Mamiya AFD II - 1900 g (really?)
- Contax 645 - 1850 g

6x7 (for comparison here):
- Bronica GS-1 - 2800 g (the grip is 450g)
- Pentax 67II - 2250 g


I am still looking for the weight of Bronica ETRSi, Mamiya 645 Pro (Pro TL) and mybe Bronica SQAi. The main problem for putting together the weights is to find out the weights of:
- waist level finder
- AE prism
- motor winder / grip
as the producer usually say the weight of the lightest package: body, 120 mag, WLF and a lens.

Matus,

I have not tried the 45mm prime (A or FA), so can't comment directly. I have only heard from others that the FA 45mm prime is not as sharp as the FA 45-85mm when set at the 45mm focal length. I think the FA 45-85mm is a spectacular lens.

The FA 120mm macro is indeed autofocus. Quite a nice lens. One nice feature (also found on other macro lenses) is a focus limiter switch. So you can have access to the entire focusing range - infinity to 1:1 magnification, or you can set it to be - infinity to 1/4 lifesize range or you can set it for 1/4 lifesize to 1:1 (lifesize) range. A useful feature if you are using autofocus and don't want the camera to "hunt" for focus across the entire focus range. The lens itself is very nice, although I think the A 120mm has a sturdier feel to it. I received one in BGN condition from KEH and the glass is clear and clean - a really nice surprise.

Yes, the A 55mm f/2.8 is a lovely lens. I enjoy using my copy. I even use it with my Pentax K10D body - very sharp, nice contrast.

slnce-z-gsi said:

- Youri -

thank you. I have checked the links you posted. I have to admit I was surprised to hear the both zooms (33-55, 45 - 85) were reported to be sharper than the 45mm. How do you find the quality of this lens?

For the macro lens - is the new (FA) version an autofocus lens or not? Is there any difference in optics? Let us know how it compares to the A version once it arrives.

I am happy to hear that the A 55/2.8 is a nice lens as it is probably my most preferred focal length and 35/55/120 would make a nice combo ...

Click to expand...

slnce-z-gsi said:

As I am still fiddling around the weights, I am trying to pout together list of them for similar setup configuration:
- body
- 120 back
- AE prism
- standard lens
- motor winder (or right hand grip) to make it a "true" SLR

So far I managed to put together following numbers:

645:
- Pentax 645N - 1640 g
- Mamiya AFD II - 1900 g (really?)
- Contax 645 - 1850 g

6x7 (for comparison here):
- Bronica GS-1 - 2800 g (the grip is 450g)
- Pentax 67II - 2250 g


I am still looking for the weight of Bronica ETRSi, Mamiya 645 Pro (Pro TL) and mybe Bronica SQAi. The main problem for putting together the weights is to find out the weights of:
- waist level finder
- AE prism
- motor winder / grip
as the producer usually say the weight of the lightest package: body, 120 mag, WLF and a lens.

Click to expand...

Matus:

Have you seen this chart from the manual for the Mamiya 645 Pro?:

slnce-z-gsi said:

Now - let me come up with a bit different questions: If there are some among you that have used also a MF rangefinder with interchangeable lenses (like Bronica RF645, Mamiya 6 or 7) - how would you find it to compare to a 645 SLR in terms of handling (focusing, hand hold shooting)

Click to expand...

I just sold off my 3rd attempt at a Mamiya 645 Pro system. This time around I was fortunate enough to stumble across a 24mm fisheye at a very good price, so it was the lens that brought me back to a Mamiya - for the 3rd time ! They are very affordable, I was able to get a 645 Pro body - for $115, a back for $50, and a AE Prism for $150. All at KEH Skip the winders, they are gimmick's IMO.

The 24mm fisheye is a cool lens. But I tired of the weight of it. I am waiting for a micro four thirds fisheye for my Panasonic GH1, something small and discreet.

Overall, this is how I feel about it - the weight and size of the Mamiya 645 Pro, is too much for me.

It's like the size of a motorcycle battery. I prefer the Mamiya 6, it's light and small enough, that I can carry it around in my messenger bag with a nice neoprene Zing case to protect it. 645 SLR's -image wise are a step up from a 35mm SLR, no question about that, but in my mind - a Mamiya 645, fully loaded, is not that far off; in terms of bulk, from that of the Mamiya RZ. The Mamiya RZ or RB are amazing camera systems, but they require a tripod. Just my opinion, I think it's tedious to carry a bulky camera around, and it's not very discreet, as soon as you pull it out, it attracts attention, it's not subtle, people freeze up, and stiffen, and put on their plastic smiles as or just gawk at you, the camera nerd , with your contraption.

Again I've danced around 3 times with a Mamiya 645 system, optics are great, and its an affordable well built system, no doubt about that but I prefer the Mamiya 6. That camera just rules, ... it's the perfect camera.

Skip the 645 and get a Mamiya 6 or 7. Greatest rangefinders in the world.

- MattKing -
thank you. Now it really seems that the Mamiya Pro TL is not that heavy as I expected - 1800g in a full setup with 80 mm lens.

- mrisney -

well - thank you for your experience. As you brought up the Mamiya 6 let me just share my "problem". I started "larger-than-35mm" film photography because of ... Mamiya 6 ... which I never bought (I was too naive to believe that system that is limited to 3 lenses could get too expensive and went to 4x5 instead ... makes me laugh today). But I always had a soft spot for rangefinders. In fact - I got the Bessa R3A last year (only one lens yet though). But there is a reason - if I want to go light, compact and fast - I will choose probably the 35.

As I do not hurry getting another camera - I really try to think where and how I would use it. Over the last two years I was shooting with Rolleiflex T, 4x5 and DLSR (aged Minolta 7D I do not like - so used mostly as light meter for 4x5) - and indeed quite some of shots I wanted to make were not possible (especially if I had only the Rolleiflex along). So while I am quite attracted to cameras like Bronica RF645, Mamiya 6 & 7 I hesitate to get another camera that will keep most of the old limitations.

Is one does the math, than the weight of 3 lens setup (with focal lengths that would compare to about 28/50/90) would be around 2 - 2.3 kg for RF645, Mamiya 6 or 7 and about 3 - 3.3 kg for Contax or Pentax 645 (and probably similar to Bronica ETRSi or Mamiya 645 Pro). So - that is about 1 kg difference which would allow me to get faster lenses (in particular the Contax 80/2.0) get closer (portraits) or longer (here has the Contax a bit problem - the 350/4 is too pricey). Also - the only RF camera in the town that offers truly wide lenses is the Mamiya 7.

To be honest - the fear of size&weight is indeed there - it never just the camera and lenses - you usually carry more just because you can (more film backs, extension tubes) so the weight grows.

But not get me wrong - I have hauled 15 pounds of 4x5 equipments to 6000 feet in my home country (only to get 3 mediocre shots) and actually enjoyed that, but indeed I have something a bid different in my mind with the 645. It should be a camera/system to take along where more that just snapshots are to be taken but the situation just does not allow for 4x5 (so often the case). Is should allow me to shoot handhold, close, take a candid portrait here and then and maybe do some studio shots (portraits, fun stuff ...).

I have even hauled my 4x5 (AND Rolleiflex and Olympus XA) around New Zealand for 3 weeks in a camper van and if I should do it again I would prefer 1 MF camera (Mamiya 7 or Contax 645 ... hard to say) - but I have taken one of my most favorite shots with 400 mm lens (would translate to 200 mm in 645 or 270 mm in 6x7) - no RF in that territory. So would I made different shots with RF or SLR ? - sure - which would have been better ? ... I have no idea ...

I know I have to get my hands on BOTH Mamiya 7 and some of the 645 SLRs (preferably Pentax or Contax) - and it will be pricey here in Germany, so before that I am trying to figure as much out as possible in "dry runs" - and you guys are a great help here.

I guess I will not let this thread go so easily - another question .

All of the systems discussed above offer teleconverters. I of course know what does that using 1.4x (2.0x) means loosing 1 (2) stops, but I would really like to know what is the impact on the image quality.

So - I would love to hear your experience with teleconverters with any of the 645 SLR systems (important particularly with Contax as the 350/4 is way too expensive - I have seen one going for 3600€ ! ).

slnce-z-gsi said:

thanks. But I guess that before this thread will be closed and the first poster banned we should move back to analog world

Now - let me come up with a bit different questions: If there are some among you that have used also a MF rangefinder with interchangeable lenses (like Bronica RF645, Mamiya 6 or 7) - how would you find it to compare to a 645 SLR in terms of handling (focusing, hand hold shooting). Sure the RF are lighter and smaller - but what are the practical impacts on the shooting itself? Did you ever take the SLR over the RF to a trip even though the SLR was heavier and more bulky? How do you feel about theses two different worlds?

Click to expand...

I've owned a Mamiya 645 Pro TL, a Bronica RF 645, and a Mamiya 7. Only the Mamiya 7 remains. The M645 was a nice camera, but I hated the slow flash sync, and it was a bit heavy and bulky to carry about all day. So I sold it off and bought a Bronica RF645. I loved the lenses, and it was small and light. But I lost faith in the film transport; it was replaced under warranty, but that made me uncomfortable because I'd read that many folks had similar problems. So I sold it and bought a Mamiya 7II. Love it. It's just right for times when I don't want to shoot large format.

If I were to buy a 645 SLR, I'd opt for a Bronica ETRSi. The lenses are excellent, the leaf shutters sync at all speeds, and they are a tremendous value.

Robert, you seem to be one of the very few people who experienced problem with film transport with the RF645. Your comment about the Mamiya 7 getting used instead of large format is echoing in my ears - that would be part of the job the camera I am considering now should do ...

ETRSi is indeed a nice camera - but there rather small supply of Zenzanon PE lenses out there (I mean eBay).

slnce-z-gsi said:

Robert, you seem to be one of the very few people who experienced problem with film transport with the RF645. Your comment about the Mamiya 7 getting used instead of large format is echoing in my ears - that would be part of the job the camera I am considering now should do ...

ETRSi is indeed a nice camera - but there rather small supply of Zenzanon PE lenses out there (I mean eBay).

Click to expand...

I recently had my Bronica RF645 serviced to correct the film winding problem, so the issue isn't confined to Robert.

Tom

First up, let me admit that I skipped a few pages and haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but hopefully this might still be usefull for someone.

I've been using a Pentax 645 system for the past five years or so. One of the first ones, with the push-buttons. It is my all time favourite camera of any I have ever owned, beautiful hand-holdability ans erganomics (it balences very well in my hands) and great for the times when 4x5 would be a too slow or cumbersome. My lens kit includes the 35mm, 55mm, 75mm and 150mm. They are all fantastic lenses, I have occasionally lusted after the 120mm macro, or the 300mm, but in reality, the only other lenses I would ever make any real world use of would be either of the leaf shutter lenses for outdoor portraits with lighting.

My ONE and ONLY complaint, which was never really an issue until I started to use 4x5 a few years ago, is that the backs can't be changed mid roll. I would LOVE to be able to have backs with both b&w and colour transparency that I could insert depending on the shot... but hey, for what I think is the perfect camera system (for me), is it really such a big price to pay? (...actually, somedays I think it is! But a little forward planning most times can fix that...)

Boy, if you love those Pentax 645 lenses and like the original P645, do yourself a favor and pick up a 645N sometime and prepare to be amazed. Like a lot of other Pentax gear the manual lenses coupled to a newer AF body (with upgraded metering options and brighter, better viewfinder screens) is a really sweet combination. I like the VF of my P645N better than any of my Nikons or even my Pentax LX, for all its real estate and brightness. It's a camera that rapidly becomes transparent to the image making process, and that's a really good thing.

I personally feel that MF film is so inexpensive in 120 ($4/roll and change, something like 6 bucks a roll for developing and scanning Ektar, is what I'm paying) that to wind-on and to waste 1/2 a roll to change film types on the rare occasions that I can't buzz through 16 frames, seems not such a penalty to me. If I need shot-to-shot ISO changes, I've always got a DSLR for that. For the bargain that my P645N was (~$350 a couple of years ago) I can't complain about mid-roll changes. The inserts are really easy and rapid to swap out with the 1/4 turn fastener (mere seconds and I can do so one handedly in bad weather conditions of blowing snow, etc), although I will admit that reloading them in the field is a tad fiddly.

slnce-z-gsi said:

I am still looking for the weight of Bronica ETRSi, Mamiya 645 Pro (Pro TL) and mybe Bronica SQAi. The main problem for putting together the weights is to find out the weights of:
- waist level finder
- AE prism
- motor winder / grip
as the producer usually say the weight of the lightest package: body, 120 mag, WLF and a lens.

Click to expand...

Here are weights of some different Bronica ETR-Si items:

Body with screen---------------------------1 lb.,1.1 oz.

Latest back w/insert and dark slide:-------------10.4 oz.
Insert-------------------------------------------4.7 oz.
Dark slide-----------------------------------------.5 oz.

EI Winder (2nd of the 3 models made),
with 6 alkaline batteries----------------------1 lb.,5.5 oz.
w/o batteries, with battery holder--------------1 lb.,.6 oz.

AEIII Prism Finder--------------------------------12.1 oz.

Plain Prism----------------------------------------9.6 oz.

Speed Grip---------------------------------------11.0 oz.
w/hand strap------------------------------------11.3 oz.

Bellows Lens Hood---------------------------------8.1 oz.
w/telephoto mask----------------------------------8.5 oz.

62mm plastic front lens cap--------------------------.4 oz.
Rear lens cap---------------------------------------.9 oz.
finder bottom cap-----------------------------------.4 oz.

Rotary Finder w/eyecup---------------------------15.4 oz.

Action Prism Finder w/eyecup-----------------1 lb., 8.4 oz.

- Tom -
yes - indeed there are users that had a problem with the RF645 film winding mechanism, however it does not seem to be a major issue. Anyhow - would you mind to share approximate cost of such a repair?

- SteveR -
The Pentax is indeed an interesting camera although I would preferably choose the 645N or 645NII. The inability to change films mid-roll is something I could miss so I keep thinking about it. I have similar experience with my Rolleiflex from a longer trip where it would have been nice to be able to change films based on conditions (say Provia 100F and Fuji 160ProS). However what attracts me is the 33-55/4.5 zoom that could be really nice for travel and landscapes. Problem is that sample images are very scarce and some users have reported spherical plane of focus and some distortions (one would expect some).

So my next question - I would love to hear more about the Pentax 645 33-55/4.5 lens - some samples would be great too.

- lxdude -
thank you - that is more than I wanted to know As I guess you have all the equipment you listed - in particular I would like to ask on your opinion about the speed grip. I see it as a lighter replacement of the motor winder. Is it comfortable to use? Does it have a shutter trigger?

In the meant time I have looked for MF gear rental possibilities in Germany. I found quite some (mostly Hamburg, Berlin, Munich). while it is rather easy to find Mamiya 645 Pro or the Contax 645, I found only 1 rental place (Munich) where it would be possible to rent Mamiya 7/7II.

Should you know more rental places where Mamiya 7/7II could be rented in Germany (apart from the www.delight-rent.com in Munich) it would be great.

Pupfish said:

Boy, if you love those Pentax 645 lenses and like the original P645, do yourself a favor and pick up a 645N sometime and prepare to be amazed. Like a lot of other Pentax gear the manual lenses coupled to a newer AF body (with upgraded metering options and brighter, better viewfinder screens) is a really sweet combination.

Click to expand...

Well, if one shows up for a good price, I might just give it a go! A brighter viewfinder is always a welcome adition.

Pupfish said:

I personally feel that MF film is so inexpensive in 120 ($4/roll and change, something like 6 bucks a roll for developing and scanning Ektar, is what I'm paying) that to wind-on and to waste 1/2 a roll to change film types on the rare occasions that I can't buzz through 16 frames, seems not such a penalty to me.

Click to expand...

Generally I agree, but it can on the odd occasion be annoying, say your four shots into a fresh roll of FP4, thinking and shooting in b&w, but then a scene comes in front of you that would look amazing in colour, what do you do? When I travel I'm usually in the outback for a good month or so at a time, so would dread the thought of nearing the end of the trip and find I'm running short of film because I wasted half rolls here and there. Just my thing, born and raised of Scottish stock, my value for money is my one care in life

The Bronica's Speed Grip is lighter and less bulky than the winder, though the Winder EII (the newest version) is close to the same size. The Speed Grip is comfortable and well balanced, and is in my mind more practical unless you need a winder. It does have a shutter trigger, which will also activate the AE-III metering prism with a half-press when the meter is turned on. It also has a hot shoe; TTL flash, though, is controlled through a cable connected to the body.

While I'm at it, and as a general FYI, some thoughts on the AE-III prism: It's nice, but it makes the ETR-Si less of a bargain. It has spot and averaging metering, manual and AE modes. The AE is aperture priority. The manual is not fully coupled. That is, it's not a center-the-LED or LCD indicator kind of thing. It knows the aperture you set, then tells you what the shutter speed should be to match, but is not coupled to the shutter speed, so you just set it manually. Or put another way, you set the desired shutter speed, and turn the aperture ring until that shutter speed appears in the readout. I prefer to use AE and the AE lock to freeze a desired speed, as I find it faster. I seldom use AE, but would have liked to have a fully coupled manual meter. The meter LCD is nice, and illuminates automatically in dim light. In AE, it will set exposures as long as 32 seconds; in manual, it indicates shutter speeds to the maximum on the body, 8 seconds.

In top shape, the AE-III is about $300. That would go a long way toward a Pentax 645n's cost, and the Pentax has spot, center-weighted averaging, or matrix metering; Av, Tv or Program AE; data imprinting on the film rebate, and built in winder. And, of course, autofocus with AF lenses, if that's desired. So unless interchangeable backs, interchangeable prisms, or leaf shutter usage is paramount, and TTL metering is needed with them, I don't recommend buying an ETR-Si with the AE-III finder instead of a Pentax 645n. The ETR-Si as a simple setup is a great bargain, and I think that's where its strength lies compared to the other 645's. I like mine a lot, but would just as soon use the plain prism most of the time and meter separately. It has higher magnification and is less fragile. The Action Prism Finder is great for macro, as I can have my eye 6 inches from the camera with it on a tripod, but it has no meter.
TTL flash metering is always available, as it's contained within the body.

- SteveR -
I do share your concerns about the film backs. Even though I would probably not carry BW and Color films for longer trips, but still - to be able to switch from, say, Velvia to Astia would be often a plus. But it makes ordering images in time more complicated (especially few weeks after they were taken). Hmmm.

- lxdude -
Thank you very much for the details about ETRSi. It is very helpful for ordering the 4 candidates. I guess the Pentax or Contax are closer to what I would like to get. Let's see.

-----
My questions from the post Nr. 66 are still valid

I am midway through selling off my Contax 645 gear, but that has more to do with changes in what, and how, I shoot than it does with any flaw with this camera. I love my Contax, and I've sold it with more than a trace of regret. (JP, I hope you're enjoying it!)

Biggest pluses are its ergonomics, and its exceptional lenses. It feels better in my (medium-to-large) hand than any other MF camera I've ever used. The control layout is well-considered and implemented, so that the controls you need most often just fall under the appropriate fingers for the job. Controls are firm and stiff, not sloppy, and feel solid and purposeful. Lots of knobs and buttons, no annoying menus to navigate. I used mine with the battery grip all the time, and the grip only improves the ergonomics. The rechargeable Lithium 2CR3 batteries for it are a must, since the disposables are something like $9 or $10 a pop; but with the battery grip (which I always used, and which makes the ergonomics even better) you can use NiMH AA's for even greater convenience.

Lenses are excellent across the line. Particular standouts are the 35, 80, 140, and 350, but they're all good. I owned all of them except for the 45 and the zoom. The 80 has a bit of barrel distortion wide open, but it's not over-the-top objectionable. They are almost clinically sharp, surgically sharp and contrasty in their rendering, more so than the Mamiya 7 and RZ glass I'm also familiar with; those in turn seem more so than the Hasselblad lenses I'm currently using. I'm not saying that one is sharper than the other, but that they render quite differently in their individual excellence. This is an eyeball impression; I've not done formal testing. I'd not turn my nose up at any of these systems, nor at their lenses.

I've heard the complaint about the viewfinder being small and/or dim, but I never really found this a limitation if true. I used the AF regularly, and could always manually adjust focus if needed. The AF was always spot-on for me.

My reason for selling is that I'm really fond of the square or near-square formats like 6x6 and 6x7 for the kind of work I'm doing these days, and came to find the 645 a bit too rectangular. I was regularly cropping off some of the long dimension of the 645 frame, which made my negative even smaller by comparison with its larger MF cousins. So I shoot 6x7 (Mamiya 7, some RZ) and 6x6 (Hassy) and crop very little from either.

If I were still shooting in a more fast-moving way as in my past, the Contax would be nearly ideal, given its ergonomics, portability, and decent (not great, but decent) AF. Wedding shooters seem to love it, and swear by it.

I'd not worry too much about service and parts for the camera itself; bodies are now so cheap that the best insurance is to simply buy a spare body. It was discontinued in early 2006, with the promise of parts and service for a decade through Kyocera, who owns the brand. Don't know whether there's 3rd-party service availability, since it never was an issue during my use of the system.

A larger problem is the relative scarcity of accessories. The waist level finder (which never made much sense for the 645 format unless all you shoot is landscape orientation) is really tough to find; the exceptional Really Right Stuff L-bracket is no longer offered on the RRS website; and the cylindrical aluminum lens hoods are dear, and pricey.

Hope this helps. Great camera, great system.

Mike, thank you. It is really hard to resist this camera

Have you ever used any of the lenses with a teleconverter? I might be interested to get a longer reach than the 140 or 210 lenses offer the the price of the 350/4 makes it unreachable. Would the 210/4 + 1.4x convertor be a viable (albeit slower) solution?

As you are now using the Mamiya 7 (existence of which makes the choice much harder, so to say), and apart from the obvious differences, how do you find the hand holding usage? On one hand the Contax is heavier, has mirror slap, but has faster lenses, on the other the Mamiya is lighter with leaf shutters but slower lenses.

I am attracted towards the Mamiya by the lower weight and large negative, on the other hand a 645 SLR offers wider usage. As the only MF camera I have used is Rolleiflex T I have hard time to get the feeling of the difference in final print (size 12x16" or even 16x20").

I am still waiting for somebody (apart from my wife - she has completely different opinion ) to tell me that I am a snobbish fool and I should go with Mamiya 645 Pro or Pentax 645N instead. I know. But the Contax looks great (not a right criterion - I know), people rave about the interface and lenses ...

MikeSeb said:

I love my Contax, and I've sold it with more than a trace of regret. (JP, I hope you're enjoying it!)

Click to expand...

I'm overjoyed with your ex-contax, really, it's that good!!!
There isn't any perfect system, but having an rb67 system for slow work and cheap tlr for playing, my contax fields the gap for serious and fast work perfectly.
But after some time with it and few rolls i have found that contax 645 has some drawbacks.
First, it's a bulky camera, it's as big as rb67 but lighter, so i wouldn't use it as allday walk around camera. I don't really mind it, but the people i shoot, they seem to care sometimes (big things in front of their noses).
The viewfinder, it's big, it's nice, it has quite information on it, but to me it lacks iso info, and sometimes i feel that it has some sort of tunnel effect (like with small dslr viewfinder if you know what i mean), and well, it's not the brightest out there.
The backs system, the mechanism to attach backs to the body works just pressing to it making sure you have it in place, it looks rather simple, but i feel it's not at the same level as overall camera, if you need to work fast it's easier to change film inserts.
The battery issue, it's not that bad, and i guess that if designers were chose an easier battery than 2cr5 like AAs it would not be mentioned (i know that grip can fix this, but it adds weight also).
Shooting with 80mm lens at f.2 is quite difficult, it's obvious that you have to nail focus quite precisely, but here af doesnt help much (as a canon can do it) and you have to do it manual. And yes 80mm have some serious barrel distortion, quite common with lens that opens that much though.
But the worst thing to me is the lens cap!!!, if you have attached the hood you can't take out the lens cap, you need to remove the hood and then you can take off the lens cap, silliest design ever. I know its easy to fix, buying a different 72mm lens cap.
I'm being really picky, and any of these "problems" change my mind that contax 645 is one of the best systems if not the best MF Af.
Being honest the difference on price (x2) with a mamiya/pentax 645 doesnt mean that contax is double the good. So if you want to pay premium because one of the strongest points of contax really appeal to you it's a good buy, if not mamiya/pentax seem to have nice cameras also.

The Contax seems like a pretty darn awesome machine in many ways. Its drawbacks, speaking as one who has never used one, are its initial cost, relative scarcity of accessories, cost of accessories, and its discontinuance. It's a damn shame Kyocera wouldn't sell its camera manufacturing business instead of shutting it down.
The Luminous Landscape has an interesting comparison between the Contax, Mamiya and Pentax 645's.

www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/645nii.shtml

There's also comparison of the different generations of Pentax 645.

BTW, I have the same gripe about the hood and lens cap for the ETR-Si's 75mm 2.8 MC and PE lenses. But the hood bayonets on and off, so it doesn't really slow me down too much.

I have just seen an angle finder for Mamiya 645 - are there angle finders for Contax 645 or Pentax 645N too? Maybe I am too much used to my Rolleiflex T, but sometimes low angle is what is needed and angle finder could be better solution than a waist level finder (I know - Pentax has fixed prism).

Do I understand correctly that the Mamiya 645 Pro TL does not offer exposure data imprinting on the film?

slnce-z-gsi said:

Have you ever used any of the lenses with a teleconverter? .... Would the 210/4 + 1.4x convertor be a viable (albeit slower) solution?

Click to expand...

Yes. I have the 1.4x Mutar, and used with the 140 or 210 it works quite well, at the cost of a stop of speed. Not as good as the 350, but a lot cheaper.

As you are now using the Mamiya 7 (existence of which makes the choice much harder, so to say), and apart from the obvious differences, how do you find the hand holding usage?

Click to expand...

The Mamiya 7 is the perfect handholding camera. I can handhold reasonably well down to 1/8 or 1/15 if I'm braced against something. No mirror slap, soft shutter release make it possible.

knowing that an slr is harder to work at lower speeds than a rangefinder, i'm quite impressed with the damped mirror of the contax 645.
A tight 1/45 is quite sharp.

Data imprinting question (Pentax 645N, 645NII and Contax 645) - when using a zoom lens - which focal length is imprinted on the film?

slnce-z-gsi said:

- Joachim -
Yes - I am fully aware of the Pentax 67, but I am also aware of the fact that this camera is for most cases a tripod camera. And one of my concerns is to get camera that is capable of decent hand-hold-ability (sure, nothing beats MF rangefinders for that) so In General I try hard to keep my self from 6x6 and 6x7 SLRs, even though there is often only rather small difference in weight (for example ETRSi versus SQA-i) Best wishes from cold rainy Muenster

- lxdude -
Indeed - I have somehow omitted the Bronica. In comparison to others I do not really see that the lenses would be considerably heavier than from others. What is your impression of the camera - how is the hand-holdability? What is your main use of the camera?

- razians -
thanks for your overview. H1 and H2 look cool, but out of the price range - especially the lenses. You say that you are looking for Mamiya (ETRSi I guess), 645NII or older Mamiya - what is steering your decision this way?

- suzyj -
You are indeed not the first that tends to prefer older Mamiyas to Later Pro or Pro TL models. Is it just the finis of the body or is there more to the difference? How do the newer and older Mamiyas compare? What is your main usage of the Mamiya M645 (weddings ..?)

Mamiya In general - I would love to hear more comments on differences between Older "metal" Mamiyas , Pro/Pro TL and AFD models. It is quite confusing (apart from the AF and backs)

On the Pentax - I found on several places that thanks to rather small and well damped mirror the Pentax 645NII actually does not really need the MLU unless one uses very long lenses (like 400mm or longer). Do the previous generations (645 & 645N) share the same well damped mirror?

Pentax & Mamiya - I am looking for a reliable source of the weights of the lenses

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Not the H1 or H2, the Hasselblad V series which in much less expensive than the H series. Parts and service are still available for the V series. The selection of available bodies, prisms, backs, lenses is quite large to allow for future growth including the dreaded d----lbacks. Also if you decided to go to the 6x6 format later, the only cost would be the film backs. The weight of a Hasselblad V body, CF f/2.8 80mm lens and a film back is less than many or all the other camera systems you looked at. Besides the digital revolution has now made these cameras affordable, no longer a camera one could only dream about.

Like the Packard advertisements said, "Ask the man that owns one."

Steve