Considering First Leica: IIIc or g - Thoughts?

Lamar · May 23, 2015

I have several Zorki's 3 and 4''s with some Jupiter lenses. I enjoy them but have been frustrated a bit by the shutter issues and the odd light leak or reflection that seems to happen on occasion.. Slow speed problems and first and second curtain timing problems. Out of 4 I have two that are fairly reliable on all but the slow speeds. So now I'm thinking of getting an LTM Leica. Specifically a IIIc or g because I like that style. My concern is that since these are the same design and age as the Zorki's I will run into the same problems only with a bit better machine work. Also I plan on using the Jupiter's on the Leica until I can budget for a Leica lens or two.

Questions:
1. I know the LTM lenses will fit and work on the Leica but I have seem posts indicating there can be issues between RF cal between the FSU lenses and European LTM's. Is that something I need to be concerned with?

2. Reasonable buy now prices for a nice IIIg only are from $550 to $700 US. Reasonable buy now prices for a good IIIc seem to be around $250 - $500 US. Is that in the ballpark or is it high?

3. Can I expect the Leica to be more reliable regarding shutter operation or will I run into the same issues. I see a lot of the posted III's indicating they have slow speed issues. I'm not as concerned if they do but I would like to pay a lower price that is commensurate with the problem. I know I can expect a good CLA to run $200. Hoping to avoid that but......

Thoughts?

Steve Bellayr · May 23, 2015

You might also want to consider the IIIF. Look are cameraquest.com's review of this model. It is probably best to purchase one that is fully functional and has had a recent CLA because with these older model cameras you never know if it is just the slower speeds that are unreliable. There can be other issues. With vintage items there is a saying: You are buying the dealer's reputation as well as the item.

benjiboy · May 23, 2015

If you buy any camera that old that you are intending to use to shoot with regularly and you need reliability you need to be prepared to spend some money on it in addition to the purchase price.

Richard S. (rich815) · May 23, 2015

Why not a red dial IIIf? I sold my c for an f.

klop · May 23, 2015

Lamar said:
I have several Zorki's 3 and 4''s with some Jupiter lenses. I enjoy them but have been frustrated a bit by the shutter issues and the odd light leak or reflection that seems to happen on occasion.. Slow speed problems and first and second curtain timing problems. Out of 4 I have two that are fairly reliable on all but the slow speeds. So now I'm thinking of getting an LTM Leica. Specifically a IIIc or g because I like that style. My concern is that since these are the same design and age as the Zorki's I will run into the same problems only with a bit better machine work. Also I plan on using the Jupiter's on the Leica until I can budget for a Leica lens or two.

Questions:
1. I know the LTM lenses will fit and work on the Leica but I have seem posts indicating there can be issues between RF cal between the FSU lenses and European LTM's. Is that something I need to be concerned with?

2. Reasonable buy now prices for a nice IIIg only are from $550 to $700 US. Reasonable buy now prices for a good IIIc seem to be around $250 - $500 US. Is that in the ballpark or is it high?

3. Can I expect the Leica to be more reliable regarding shutter operation or will I run into the same issues. I see a lot of the posted III's indicating they have slow speed issues. I'm not as concerned if they do but I would like to pay a lower price that is commensurate with the problem. I know I can expect a good CLA to run $200. Hoping to avoid that but......

Thoughts?

I cant speak for the "C" or the "G", but what I did was purchase a Leica IIIf in need of repair and sent it to Youxin Ye for a "CLA". I figured a nice one would end up needing service anyway so I thought doing it this way, I would know what I have from the beginning. No regrets.....

TheTrailTog · May 23, 2015

klop said:
I cant speak for the "C" or the "G", but what I did was purchase a Leica IIIf in need of repair and sent it to Youxin Ye for a "CLA". I figured a nice one would end up needing service anyway so I thought doing it this way, I would know what I have from the beginning. No regrets.....

You can buy direct from Youxin too. He usually has inventory on hand. Then you don't have to worry about sending it off, potential for parts replacement, etc, etc. I have owned a IIIa, IIIf, and IIIg, all of which were serviced by him. All are fine cameras and he does great work. In addressing the OP's question, I would skip the IIIg unless you have money to burn. They come at a premium and that larger viewfinder will cost you in camera size as well, making it larger than other Barnacks. If you want the larger viewfinder, I would look at an M2 or M3. I'm not sure of the differences between the IIIc and the IIIf, but the IIIf is a fantastic camera that will cost half the price of IIIg.

02Pilot · May 23, 2015

The RF coupling issue with Soviet lenses and Leica-standard bodies is really not a problem except if you are shooting a reasonably fast lens wide open and close up.

As far as the reliability issues, a 70 year old Leica will likely have just as many as a 70 year old Soviet camera, maybe more due to tighter tolerances and thus a lower tolerance for inadequate lubrication. Service should be considered a requirement for reliable operation, either before or after purchase.

Much as I'd like a IIIg, I'm not spending what they seem to go for on one; I'm quite happy with the IIIc. The IIIc and the IIIf differ only in that the latter has flash sync, in some cases a self-timer, and a film speed reminder in the wind knob. The IIIc tends to be the cheapest option out there, all things being equal.

Richard S. (rich815) · May 23, 2015

02Pilot said:
The IIIc and the IIIf differ only in that the latter has flash sync, in some cases a self-timer, and a film speed reminder in the wind knob. The IIIc tends to be the cheapest option out there, all things being equal.

When I was considering the IIIc vs IIIf (he had both available for me) here's what Youxin Ye had to say:

"...the IIIf red dial was made in about 1952, much improvements over the IIIc made in a few years after the war. Many IIIc were poorly made due to material shortage and poor assembly. For screw mount bodies, Leica made first full ball bearing cameras IIIc black dial in WWII due to the cold Russian weather, but most IIIc black dial were poorly made due to the shortage of material. Later Leica made all cameras in half race ball bearings, until the red dial, they went back to the full ball bearing cameras, as early 1950's, Germany already had good recovery from the war, quality was much better."

cuthbert · May 23, 2015

1) The supposedly incompatability issue between FSU and Leitz lenses is that being most of the Soviet design based on Zeiss material the distance between the flange and the film plane is Zeiss and it's slightly different than Leitz. Still I have no experience of focus shift but it's also true that I don't have a fast Jupiter 3, that lens being 1.5 might create problems.

2) The IIIg is the last III and supposedly the best with a lot of improvements including framelines etc...it's also a collector's item.

3) Probably yes but Leicas being Leicas usually had a better life than SU rfs and they have been serviced more often.

02Pilot · May 23, 2015

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
When I was considering the IIIc vs IIIf (he had both available for me) here's what Youxin Ye had to say:

"...the IIIf red dial was made in about 1952, much improvements over the IIIc made in a few years after the war. Many IIIc were poorly made due to material shortage and poor assembly. For screw mount bodies, Leica made first full ball bearing cameras IIIc black dial in WWII due to the cold Russian weather, but most IIIc black dial were poorly made due to the shortage of material. Later Leica made all cameras in half race ball bearings, until the red dial, they went back to the full ball bearing cameras, as early 1950's, Germany already had good recovery from the war, quality was much better."

It's a fair point, and I'm sure those differences do exist and have some bearing (pardon the pun) on the function of the camera, but my experience with 1946 and 1949 production IIIcs indicates that they can and do work well with proper servicing, and may have good cosmetics as well. Having been inside quite a few cameras including these, I will say that the build quality of even an early post-war Leica seems well beyond what I've seen inside Soviet rangefinders, though of course materials may not be as good as in later models. Certainly one should be aware of these differences, particularly if cosmetics are important, as early post-war IIIcs are known for poor chrome plating (mine are fine, however).

Richard S. (rich815) · May 23, 2015

02Pilot said:
It's a fair point, and I'm sure those differences do exist and have some bearing (pardon the pun) on the function of the camera, but my experience with 1946 and 1949 production IIIcs indicates that they can and do work well with proper servicing, and may have good cosmetics as well. Having been inside quite a few cameras including these, I will say that the build quality of even an early post-war Leica seems well beyond what I've seen inside Soviet rangefinders, though of course materials may not be as good as in later models. Certainly one should be aware of these differences, particularly if cosmetics are important, as early post-war IIIcs are known for poor chrome plating (mine are fine, however).

I hope I did not come across too adversarial in my post, I realize now it may have looked that way. You make some good points and I've heard good things on the IIIc bodies. Given a choice of both and the IIIf not too much more especially for the RD version I grabbed that instead. If I had already been stretching my budget I think a IIIc would have sufficed! ;-)

02Pilot · May 23, 2015

No, not adversarial at all (at least not the way I took it), but I just wanted to make sure it was clear that the IIIc could be a viable alternative along with the others mentioned.

Lamar · May 23, 2015

Thanks for all the feedback. I just won an auction on eBay for a 1950 IIIc. It stated it has been recently serviced; CLA'ed , one of the RF mirrors replaced, and the first curtain replaced, so I hope this means it will be in good shape to start off with. That's what I was looking for so I hope it's legit. 14 day money back guarantee and from the US so return shipping shouldn't be too much in the event it's needed.

Ko.Fe. · May 23, 2015

Honestly, if you have money for g, just keep FSU ones you have for style. Just put it on shelf to see it every day. And for taking of pictures get M2. Most likely you will need to shim J8. But once you'll nail it.... This 50$ lens will give a ride to collapsible Cron. Jupiters are nowhere near to Leitz in terms of build, but optically they are very good once they are aligned with FSU or Leica body.

mgb74 · May 23, 2015

FWIW: a IIIf on LFF now

Richard S. (rich815) · May 24, 2015

Lamar said:
Thanks for all the feedback. I just won an auction on eBay for a 1950 IIIc. It stated it has been recently serviced; CLA'ed , one of the RF mirrors replaced, and the first curtain replaced, so I hope this means it will be in good shape to start off with. That's what I was looking for so I hope it's legit. 14 day money back guarantee and from the US so return shipping shouldn't be too much in the event it's needed.

Congrats. How much?

02Pilot · May 24, 2015

Now that you've purchased a IIIc, while you wait for it to arrive I will humbly point you over to an introduction to your new camera (I wrote it, but it's not on my site): http://www.35mmc.com/02/05/2015/leica-iiic-review/

Good luck with it.

Jim Jones · May 24, 2015

Lamar, the Leica Manual by Morgan & Morgan, 12th or later edition, covers your 1950 and earlier Leicas. It is a treasure trove of information, but can tempt one into becoming a Leicaholic.

analoguey · May 24, 2015

Camera Quest, I think, has some info on fake Leicas especially the iii series cameras. so if you're shopping off eBay or even otherwise, how do you determine whether it's the genuine article?
Or is it not that much of an issue?

mgb74 · May 24, 2015

02Pilot said:
Now that you've purchased a IIIc, while you wait for it to arrive I will humbly point you over to an introduction to your new camera (I wrote it, but it's not on my site): http://www.35mmc.com/02/05/2015/leica-iiic-review/

Good luck with it.

I liked the writing, particularly:

Are you a hipster looking to impress your hipster friends? Yes, by all means, buy yourself a Leica IIIc. Its probably the cheapest Leica youre going to find, which means you wont spend much (which is good, because you probably dont have a job), and when your infatuation with film photography passes in six months, you can probably sell it for just about what you paid (assuming you havent spilled Sumatran organic fair-trade cold-brewed coffee on it).

2 things that might warrant some comment:

using the separate rf and viewing windows
that the take up spool may be missing when purchased

Lamar · May 24, 2015

$195 US. According to the listing the seller, "2foxesfuchs", states he is a former Leica employee and he does CLA's and repairs as well. The body shows some wear but I was more interested in getting the fresh servicing he had done. This will be a shooter, not a poser. Once it arrives I'll do an assessment and decide if it was worth the money. Fingers crossed. I figure I'm in good shape so long as the work is good, it would probably have cost at least $200 or more to get a good service on another body.

'

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
Congrats. How much?

Richard S. (rich815) · May 24, 2015

Lamar said:
$195 US. According to the listing the seller, "2foxesfuchs", states he is a former Leica employee and he does CLA's and repairs as well. The body shows some wear but I was more interested in getting the fresh servicing he had done. This will be a shooter, not a poser. Once it arrives I'll do an assessment and decide if it was worth the money. Fingers crossed. I figure I'm in good shape so long as the work is good, it would probably have cost at least $200 or more to get a good service on another body.

'

With a solid CLA on it that's a nice price. Congrats again.

philipus · May 25, 2015

02Pilot said:
Now that you've purchased a IIIc, while you wait for it to arrive I will humbly point you over to an introduction to your new camera (I wrote it, but it's not on my site): http://www.35mmc.com/02/05/2015/leica-iiic-review/

Good luck with it.

Just wanted to say I found this an entertaining read, thank you.

I use a black Leica II (1931) very regularly, often with a 1950 10-blade Summitar which is one of my favourite lenses. Lovely lightweight combination. I've never found the lack of faster than 1/500 and slower than 1/20 to be a limitation.

Br
Philip

Lamar · May 25, 2015

Good read. Thanks.

02Pilot said:
Now that you've purchased a IIIc, while you wait for it to arrive I will humbly point you over to an introduction to your new camera (I wrote it, but it's not on my site): http://www.35mmc.com/02/05/2015/leica-iiic-review/

Good luck with it.

Lamar · May 25, 2015

Honestly I started looking for a Zorki 1 but the concerns I had with shutter reliability and the probable need for an expensive CLA led me down this path. Hopefully I'll have a good shooter with slow speeds and 1/1000th being welcome extras when its all done.

analoguey said:
Camera Quest, I think, has some info on fake Leicas especially the iii series cameras. so if you're shopping off eBay or even otherwise, how do you determine whether it's the genuine article?
Or is it not that much of an issue?

Considering First Leica: IIIc or g - Thoughts?

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