Considering Bronica

yessammassey · Jan 24, 2017

I've been thinking of a Bronica 6x6. I understand that the earlier (like S2 and EC) models had an unusual split reflex mirror arrangement. I've read that this allowed for two major advantages compared to other SLRs:

The countervailing forces of one half of the mirror swinging up and the other swinging down helped reduce mirror shock. (Consequently, there is no MLU)

The mirror needed less clearance than a regular one-piece design, so lenses could extend farther into the mirror box. I guess this might suggest that the system had some good quality wide angle lenses... At least compared to other SLRs of the same era.

Are these real facts? If so, do they matter today? I would think that since these cameras are so old now, the majority of examples on the market could have degraded shutter dampening, making the special mirror arrangement less effective at compensating for vibration. And retrofocus WA lens design has caught up in the intervening decades, so I'm skeptical that the older WA Nikkors for these bronicas are anything special compared to newer MF SLR WA's.

The later SQ series is appealing to me, though. They seem small and easy to handle, and the higher-end models take AE meters and have MLU and true bulb mode, which are all preferred features for me. The GS-1 is also pretty cool.

I'm assuming SQ and GS have the standard reflex mirror arrangement, because nothing I've read about them mentions otherwise. Is that right? Did the split mirror concept die with the first generation of Bronica cameras?

DWThomas · Jan 24, 2017

I can say the SQ series has a standard reflex mirror setup. I would be concerned about not only the age, but the added complexity, of a split mirror design. I have an SQ-A I've had some fun with, though of late I seem to be going with my Yashica Mat 124G for travel. I did have a problem with the first SQ-A body, and not surprisingly, light seals can show problems in the backs. In the latter, the seals around what I'll call the "back shell" are easy enough to replace DIY. I have intent to make a darkslide seal, as in one of my 4 backs that is damaged, but I've stalled out with other priorities. Suffice it to say the darkslide seal is a more complex situation.

hashtagquack · Jan 24, 2017

I'm also using the S2a and constantly surprised that its handholdable at quite low speeds. If I haven't used any wide angles on it but your logic re: mirror clearance is partially the reason I bought mine.

The later Bronica are great in their own way but the S2a are beautifully designed and a joy to use. Plus the 1/1000 shutter and instant return mirror

Easiest way is just to get both

StephenT · Jan 24, 2017

Stick with the S2a vs. the S2 due to the winding gears being brass in the 2 and steel in the 2a. I have the S2a, the EC, and the GS and like them all very much.

moto-uno · Jan 24, 2017

If you get the opportunity , you should give a listen to the shutter in the older Bronicas first . The rest of us know what I'm
speaking of ! But the S-2(a) models were a definite pleasure to hold in this mechanics hands . Peter

choiliefan · Jan 24, 2017

The Bronica EC is the one with the split mirror. The S-series mirror slides down and under the mirror box as a cloth blind simultaneously slides under the viewfinder screen. Quite an elaborate system...

Alan Gales · Jan 24, 2017

I used to shoot EC's with the split mirror. I also owned an S2a at one time. I never had a problem with the split mirror. If you buy one then get an S2a or EC. The earlier S2 series had brass gears that would strip when you advanced the film. The latest ECTL has a meter. I've read that when the meter fails the camera will no longer work. The S2a does not need a battery. The E and C in EC stands for electronically controlled shutter so the camera is battery dependent.

The early Bronicas had a focal plane shutter. They are quite loud when tripped. Just a warning. The Nikkor lenses were excellent except the 135mm was a bit soft. The 75 and 40 are fantastic. The 40mm is hard to find. The Bronica lenses were great performers too. I really liked the Bronica 150mm for portraits. There was also a Komura line plus you could cobble other lenses to the lens mount. With the helix focus mount they could focus pretty close. Not as close as the RZ67 I had but close.

The later SQ series used leaf shutter lenses. I read where a fellow had both. He preferred the early Bronica lenses for their great bokeh and the later lenses for their leaf shutters and being a tad sharper.

Argenticien · Jan 24, 2017

Going into the S2/S2a/EC series, with their wonky mirrors, in order to go wide may be an iffy strategy. The widest I have for my S2 is the Nikkor 50/3.5 so far. The Nikkor 40s are fairly rare (as Alan said) and therefore fairly expensive; there is a more compact Zenzanon (Bronica) 40mm that I think may have come later -- maybe for the EC(?) -- but of course then also fits the S2 models. That 40 is super ultra rare; I've seen just 2 for sale on (U.S.) eBay in approximately the last year (or a bit longer). Bellamy could probably find you one in Japan if you were hell-bent and money were no object.

I have only briefly worked with a (borrowed) Mamiya 6, and never with a Mamiya 7, but at least according to the hype online, the wides on those (50mm widest on the 6; 43mm on the 7) would probably blow away these old 40s/50s for the Bronicas. The 43mm in fact seems to be the reason people buy the 7.

--Dave

Ron789 · Jan 24, 2017

Some 30 years ago I used an EC-TL. I loved it! The built-in AE system was a joy to work with. Thanks to the large mirror the viewfinder was very bright and easy to focus. It was a really sophisticated camera and the Nikkor lenses (I had 75mm and 50mm) were great.
But.... it was big, heavy and noisy. An SQ with an AE meter will probably be just as big and heavy. Finding an EC-TL in good condition these days might be a challenge.

mshchem · Jan 24, 2017

I have 3 SQAi cameras. No experience with the earlier models, but they are beautiful! I have Mamiya RZ67 stuff as well. As I get older I use the Bronica more and more. SQA bodies are built a little stronger (MLU lever (s) are metal instead of plastic) and take a 6V battery while the SQAi take 4 357 button cells. All the SQ series have electronic (leaf) shutters controlled by the body. If you do much flash work the leaf shutters are great. Everything SQ is dirt cheap if you look around. KEH doesn't have the inventory that they used to. It's getting harder to find nice examples so don't waste any time. I have shot with Bronica ETRSi cameras too. Great little camera (Don't buy the D**n zooms)
Fuji 6x9, Mamiya 6,7, Fuji folders....... So much fun.
Good luck, Mike

Alan Gales · Jan 24, 2017

Argenticien said:
Going into the S2/S2a/EC series, with their wonky mirrors, in order to go wide may be an iffy strategy. The widest I have for my S2 is the Nikkor 50/3.5 so far. The Nikkor 40s are fairly rare (as Alan said) and therefore fairly expensive; there is a more compact Zenzanon (Bronica) 40mm that I think may have come later -- maybe for the EC(?) -- but of course then also fits the S2 models. That 40 is super ultra rare; I've seen just 2 for sale on (U.S.) eBay in approximately the last year (or a bit longer). Bellamy could probably find you one in Japan if you were hell-bent and money were no object.

I have only briefly worked with a (borrowed) Mamiya 6, and never with a Mamiya 7, but at least according to the hype online, the wides on those (50mm widest on the 6; 43mm on the 7) would probably blow away these old 40s/50s for the Bronicas. The 43mm in fact seems to be the reason people buy the 7.

--Dave

I owned the 40mm Nikkor. The lens barrel had some of the paint rubbed off but the glass was fantastic. I listed it for $500 on Ebay and it sold.

jimjm · Jan 24, 2017

I've been shooting with an SQ-A for over 10 years now and it's proven to be very reliable and versatile. I've used it for everything from weddings and portraits to architecture, macro and night photography. I've got 4 backs in various conditions from mint to fugly, and haven't had any problems with leaks. The finders I use most are the WLF and the 45-degree prism. Definitely hand-holdable with the WLF and Speed Grip at faster shutter speeds. Big plus is you can still find SQ series gear at reasonable prices. PS series lenses had improved coatings, but even the older S lenses are great performers.

Here's a few with the 80/2.8 S lens:

yessammassey · Jan 24, 2017

This is all great info, thanks. I'll admit I have a low threshold for 'quirky' cameras or lenses with too much 'character' at this point. So many seemingly good deals on nice-looking older cameras out there, that turn out to have some kind of significant (but not overwhelmingly obvious) flaw. Any EC/S/2/a Bronica that I ended up purchasing would probably end up like that. I read people bragging about the killer deals they get on eBay, but at this point I process such comments with the same level of credulity as I would if they said they saw Bigfoot.

My other hang-up (is wanting to use a film camera that operates and performs as intended when it was made a hang-up?) is lens sharpness. My day-to-day workflow involves scanning, and I'm very hesitant to spend the effort on printing & archiving unless the image is sharp enough for my taste. I think the Bronica SQ-A (This is the one to get, it sounds like. The newer Ai has more brittle plastic?) might be new enough that I can reasonably expect to find bodies with full functionality and lenses that haven't been shaken loose, but I'm a little less impressed by the MTF values I've seen for the SQ lenses that I've seen, compared to something like the blistering 65mm K/L that sits on my RB67. (Too bad the 65 has a decentered floating element - I told you I can't all my ducks in a row here!)

Maybe one day I can find a system that lets me have my cake and eat it too. The SQ lenses are nothing to sneeze at, of course. I've seen gorgeous photos taken with them. I'm just going to have to think about it.

hoffy · Jan 24, 2017

I own both an S2A and a SQAi.

The major advantage I find with the S2A is a higher shutter speed, since it is a curtain shutter. As mirror slap - lets just say, with the S2A, you most certainly know when the shutter is fired.

My only concern, owning Bronica, is service. Google Bronica Server, then google Hasselblad service. IMHO, if you can afford the outlay, I'd seriously consider just getting a blad. (I can't, so I'm stuck with the Bronnies for now.)

moto-uno · Jan 24, 2017

^ "Stuck with Bronnies " , I hope you're not expecting tears ! And concerns about service , almost moot , heck you can replace
them for next to nothing compared to a Hassie anything . Peter

klownshed · Jan 25, 2017

I have an SQ-A and the body and lenses seem to be very good and reliable.

I've not had the same luck with backs though. I have recently finiished a roll in the back I thought was the good one (I have three backs) and the first 6 frames were good, even spacing, but then the last 6 all overlapped in the space of a frame and a half. The back stopped winding properly. It still appeared to wind on, the frame numbers advanced after frame it wound the film off the spool.

It's frustrating to lose shots especially with the Bronica as when I shoot with it I have usually made an extra effort (location, tripod, making time, etc) and its the least reliable camera I have due to the backs. And I have a lubitel! ;-)

I am looking for another back but they are creeping up in price in the UK at least. I don't mind paying a bit more for a good one but people seem to be taking advantage and selling the crappy ones for a lot of money now too.

I may had to dismantle one of the backs to see if it's possible for an amateur dIY service...

ruilourosa · Jan 25, 2017

I´ve got a older bronica from my father with the mirror down » curtain covering the ground glass » focal plane shutter, it was good for an amateur 20 or 30 rolls per year run, but my father used it for commercial studio work running 6 to 10 rolls a day... and it wear down in a few years... when i got it into my hands the shutter mirror curtain mechanism and the gears were broken, and no service could make it alive again.

erts´s, sq´s and gs´s are amazing reliable!!! i´ve seen 30 years old cameras in wedding service and never cla´d going on and on!

i got a gs 1 now with almost all lenses... and the lenses are a least as good as any in MF, sometimes better, as i can see using them in my d810, specially the 110!

i think their lack of charm put´s them in the cheap shelf comparing to others!

comparing to mamiya or pentax... bronica is the most reliable by far!!!

hasselblad has good lenses and is a good camera but charm and mythification do a lot!!!

i doubt anyone could tell apart two images from similar focal lenghts and same f/stop in a normal (but close) visualization from the same scene

pdeeh · Jan 25, 2017

klownshed said:
I am looking for another back but they are creeping up in price in the UK at least. I don't mind paying a bit more for a good one but people seem to be taking advantage and selling the crappy ones for a lot of money now too.

There was a little flood of them on ebay a couple of weeks ago, all in the £20 range.
But I see them up to £80 all the time as well, especially as expected from dealers.
They do seem very variable in price in the UK at least, as are the lenses. I'm after a 50/3.5 and I've seen them, both S and PS, at anything from £50 to over £400!
Perhaps people just don't know what to charge for them?

yessammassey · Jan 25, 2017

It always warms my heart to read a story of camera malfunction or woe. Misery loves company and all that. But I'm still getting the sense that SQa's are a pretty good bet for reliability, all things considered. My city has a couple of really good camera repairmen and I wouldn't be too worried about service as long as I can scrape together the replacement parts - and if there's one thing Camera Hell is good for, it's buying junked cameras at low ball prices.

Using an RB67, with its many mating surfaces and interlocks creating a plethora of potential failure points and light seal breaks, has made me kind of wary when it comes to any kind of modular SLR system, but I'm still partial to the form factor... as long as the the boxy bulk is justified by a frame size 6x6 or larger. I also want more portability and automation than the RB provides, so I'm sticking the SQ-A in my back pocket.

I guess the only other question I've got about the SQ-A is regarding its T mode. Is it like the RB67, where it's necessary to change the shutter speed dial or operate the film advance to close the shutter? Having MLU and an AE meter that goes to 8 seconds would help to avoid the need for manualy-timed long exposures in a lot of cases, but I'm sure there will still be occasional need for the cable release and watch method. I just hope I won't have to add a hat to the list of needed materials in that sort of situation. Would be great if the T model was, shutter press to open, shutter press to close. Is it?

Finally, what about the GS-1? Can anyone tell me how it compares to the RB67 and/or P67? The Mamiya and Pentax 6x7 systems both have some very nice wides: the aforementioned 65mm K/L for the Mamiya, and the aspirationaly priced but apparently fantastic 55mm SMC for Pentax, among others. The GS has a 50mm lens as its widest, but I haven't been able to dig up much information on its performance. I assume it's good; I just wonder if it's better than the RB67's 50, which I didn't find to be all that great compared to the 65mm K/L.

Also, how would you rate the GS-1 for hikes and walk-around photography? I know it's got to be better than the RB67 for such uses, but what about in comparison to the P67?

DWThomas · Jan 25, 2017

yessammassey said:
I guess the only other question I've got about the SQ-A is regarding its T mode. Is it like the RB67, where it's necessary to change the shutter speed dial or operate the film advance to close the shutter? Having MLU and an AE meter that goes to 8 seconds would help to avoid the need for manualy-timed long exposures in a lot of cases, but I'm sure there will still be occasional need for the cable release and watch method. I just hope I won't have to add a hat to the list of needed materials in that sort of situation. Would be great if the T model was, shutter press to open, shutter press to close. Is it?

It's halfway between those points! There is a slide on the lens you move to expose 'T' (vs 'A'), then when you press the shutter release, the shutter opens and stays. You then push the slide back to showing the 'A' to close the shutter. One might still want a hat if the camera isn't solidly mounted. The slide is normally locked in the 'A' setting. S lenses have a screw to unlock the slide, PS lenses have a little plunger to lift.

hsandler · Jan 25, 2017

I have an SQ-A and the 50mm S wide angle. I find it wickedly sharp all over, so I wouldn't worry about retrofocus designs. I have not used the older S2 or EC, but they are aesthetically pretty, especially the art deco chrome trim on the S2. I also thought the very rare and older Bronica D was a beauty. The leaf shutter on the SQ-A is very useful for flash, especially outdoor fill flash at 1/250s or so. I am having some light seal issues develop on one of my backs. Until I get some more backs I just tape up over all the seal edges with electrical tape after I load a roll of film.

One issue that I have not seen discussed much is the quality of the ground glass screens on the SQ series vs. either other Bronicas or other brands. I have two Japanese TLRs from circa 1958. Both have two-piece screens with a Fresnel below the ground glass and neither are as bright or contrasty as the standard screen in my SQ-A. It would be interesting to compare the viewfinder of an SQ-A with an f2.8 lens to an S2 or EC with an f2.8 lens.

hashtagquack · Jan 25, 2017

hsandler said:
One issue that I have not seen discussed much is the quality of the ground glass screens on the SQ series vs. either other Bronicas or other brands. I have two Japanese TLRs from circa 1958. Both have two-piece screens with a Fresnel below the ground glass and neither are as bright or contrasty as the standard screen in my SQ-A. It would be interesting to compare the viewfinder of an SQ-A with an f2.8 lens to an S2 or EC with an f2.8 lens.

The ground glass in my ETRSI is by far brighter and has more contrast than my S2a. Wonderful to focus. I find this even preferable to the acutematte screen for the Hasselblad 500CM.

On the reliability discussion; the ETRSI always comes out when I need reliability. The S2a when I just want to enjoy the whole experience, and the sounds of course!

klownshed · Jan 25, 2017

yessammassey said:
It always warms my heart to read a story of camera malfunction or woe. Misery loves company and all that. But I'm still getting the sense that SQa's are a pretty good bet for reliability, all things considered.

Don't get me wrong, I've only had problems with the back. But a problem is a problem and now that they are getting old these problems will increase.

The good thing is the main part of the camera has been very good and being modular you just need a new back or two which isn't much in the grand scheme of things.

But yes, losing photos due to malfunctions (especially when you are unaware the camera is misbehaving) is never fun. And as I mentioned above, due to the way I photograph with the SQ-A they are always the ones I've put most effort in to.

So I would recommend the SQ-A with the understating that the backs can be problematical.

I have three backs, bought separately for various sums of money in various conditions. All three have malfunctioned. That's a poor hit rate.

RichardJack · Jan 25, 2017

Hi,
My two cents...as a Bronica owner 9 bodies (645,6x6,6x7) and 39 lenses 40-500mm. The EC & EC-TL models were the only Bronica bodies with a split mirror.
I would advise getting the newest body possible. If your looking for 6x6, the SQ-Ai is the best choice. My reason is the older they get the more they are prone to light leaks and malfunctions. I love the older S2A & EC-TL bodies with Nikkor lenes ( and even a Zeiss) but parts are getting scarce and so are repair shops who will fix them. I spent $400 to repair a EC-TL's meter last fall (the camera had sentimental value). The SQ-A is a very comfortable camera to use handheld (I wish it had 1/1000 like the older models), I like the MF Chimney CDS finder better than the AE (but that is personal taste).
It is also easier to find accessories for the SQ-A & SQ-Ai than the older bodies. Stay away from the SQ-B, it can not accept the metered prisms. There have been some great bargains lately on Ebay, I paid about $230 for 4 PS lenses two weeks ago. 50PS, 110PS macro, 150PS, & 180PS. All in excellent condition some with cases. At the same time I bought the 35mm fisheye for $330 but found that the cement in the rear lens group was opaque (a common problem with that lens) so I returned it. If you don't mind a heavy and bulky camera, the GS-1 is a gem. All of the lenses are sharp but only the 65-150mm lenses use 72mm filters, the 50 and longer are 82-95mm. It's very well made and a joy to use, but I would recommend using a tripod with this one and M/L. You can always do like I did, buy one or two of each.
Last fall I fell back in love with my old EC-TL, had it fixed and added a few lenses that I was missing. I started a album dedicated to Bronica cameras, there are no award winning photos there, just test images with various lenses and films. Once I have some free time I have lots more to add. I'm proud to add that I'm a friend of Jimmy Koh and Tony Hilton.
http://www.pbase.com/rick_jack/bronica
Going with a Bronica is a good choice.
regards,
Rick

choiliefan · Jan 25, 2017

Rick, are the EC screens brighter or easier to focus than the S-series? My ETRSI is a joy to use. The S2 is what it is.

Considering Bronica

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