Considering 4x5

Michael Firstlight · Jul 2, 2018

I'm considering 4x5 - I currently shoot 6x7 (Pentax 67II and a couple of RBs). I can support up to 4x5 in my darkroom and scanner.

Looking at 4x5s, I am drawn to the classic lightweight wooden field cameras - mostly Wista/Zone IV (cherry/rosewood) models. I shoot mostly landscapes would likely shoot a 75mm and 120mm most of the time based on my typical 6x7 focal length preferences of 45mm and 75mm (which are roughly 22.5mm and 37.5 35mm equivalents), and maybe a 210mm down the road. I've been quite partial to my 45mm Pentax MF lens, but could be convinced to punt to a 90mm 4x5 lens (27mm 35 equiv), but would really miss those extra 5mm or so extra width. I probably would even prefer a 72mm as I love wide angle imaging. Being able to shoot an occasional 47mm (14mm 35 equiv) would be heaven.

The problem is I haven't seen any wooden 4x5 cameras that have all the features I would like. I want full movements with at least a 75mm lens, which I think are limited with most cameras - including the Wistas/Zone IV's) without an interchangable bag bellows, and I would love one with a bail back. The closest one that looks like it fits the bill is a Zone VI or a Wista 45sw (minus the bail back). The zone VI done seem to have great user reviews (bulky, lack smooth focus etc.). I've also considered a Tachihara 4x5, but I don't believe they supports much, if any movements with a 75mm lens.

It is looking like a used Wista 45sw with a bag bellows is my only alternative short of going to a non-wood 4x5 field camera and go without a bail back - but I haven't seen a used 45sw come up yet on eBay (new they are a small fortune at $3K). Can anyone suggest other alternatives?

Sorry to ask such a novice LF question; I don't have a great deal of large format experience.

Regards,
Mike

jeffreyg · Jul 2, 2018

For landscapes you probably don't need all that many movements. I have a Toyo 4x5 metal field camera with a 120, 210 and 300 tele plus a rear extension. It fits my needs very well. I've done darkroom enlargements, pt/pd contact prints and scans as well. For a serious fun camera I have an Ilford Titan 4x5 pinhole which is great for pt/pd contact prints.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

Alan9940 · Jul 2, 2018

IMO, you will need a camera offering exchange of bellows to meet your needs. A bag bellows will be needed for the 75mm, unless you anticipate using very little movements with this lens. I use a 75mm fairly often in the canyons of the southwest and front rise is often used. If you need to raise the front standard more than a few millimeters, then ya need the bag. However, most bag bellows will not allow extension out to 210mm. There are exceptions, though. The Universal bellows on my Arca-Swiss allows full camera movement with 75mm to 210mm. I switch to a longer bellows when using the 300mm or 450mm.

Alan Gales · Jul 2, 2018

I had a Tachihara 4x5. You can use a 90mm on a flat board but there is debate about the 75mm. Some felt that they needed a recessed board and some didn't. It would depend upon how much movement you needed. My widest lens was a 90 so I just used a flat board. The Tachi does not support bag bellows.

Like Jeffrey says, most do not feel the need for a lot of movements for landscape photography. If you buy a used camera and it doesn't suit you then you can always sell it and get most of your money back if you bought right. I originally bought a 75mm lens for the Tachi and found it too wide so I immediately flipped it and bought a 90. I sold it for what I paid for it minus the shipping cost. That's a cheap rental fee!

jimjm · Jul 2, 2018

Another alternative might be Shen-Hao. They make an optional bag bellows for their 4x5 field cameras. I've had a TZ45-IIB for about 10 years now and have been happy with it. My widest lens is 90mm, so I've not needed the bag bellows yet.

Here in the US you can get them new from Badger Graphic Sales, or they come up used from time to time on eBay, LFF classifieds, etc.

Luckless · Jul 2, 2018

How handy do you feel? - If you can't find exactly what you're looking for on the market, then it may be time to consider building what you need for yourself. Or more practically, modifying something that already exists.

One of the nice things about working with those classic wooden large format cameras is that they're beautifully simple for the most part, and usually pretty easy to modify if you have a basic collection of tools. And wood working is a wonderful hobby on its own. Useful to have on days when conditions aren't to your liking for photos.

Oren Grad · Jul 2, 2018

If 75/120 is your lens set and landscapes your game, you should consider a non-folding field camera. Ebony SW45 / RSW45 (available second-hand only, as Ebony is out of business). Shen Hao TFC45-IIB. Chamonix 45Hs-1. If you don't mind plastic rather than wood, Walker Titan XL Wide 4x5. There is also a Tachihara SW45, but Tachihara as well is out of business and the SW in particular is very scarce on the second-hand market.

Forget the bail lift, though - that will be available by custom modification only, and it may not be practical with all cameras.

Sirius Glass · Jul 2, 2018

The way I went was not towards movement but towards being able to photograph hand held. So I have a Pacemaker Speed Graphic and an Graflex Model D, both 4"x5". The former has some limited movements which are enough for correcting to shooting upward at a building. Something you many want to consider since the bodies are inexpensive and the lenses can be moved back and forth from the cameras that you are consider. Think about it.

Alan Gales · Jul 2, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
The way I went was not towards movement but towards being able to photograph hand held. So I have a Pacemaker Speed Graphic and an Graflex Model D, both 4"x5". The former has some limited movements which are enough for correcting to shooting upward at a building. Something you many want to consider since the bodies are inexpensive and the lenses can be moved back and forth from the cameras that you are consider. Think about it.

Or you could buy a Crown or Speed for shooting hand held and a cheap monorail for when you do need movements. I know some of the entry level Cambo and Calumets are pretty light (six pounds or so). You could also look at Toyo. Since you don't use long lenses you can cut off part of the rail so it is easier to back pack with.

voceumana · Jul 2, 2018

75 mm lenses for 4x5 are extremely wide angle, and most lenses of this focal length will not permit extreme movements--i.e., the camera won't be the limiting factor for movements, but the lens will be. If you insist on getting this wide of a lens, I recommend the ability to use bag bellows on the camera you get, as recessed lens boards are a real pain to deal with. Recessed lens boards themselves can limit the camera movements.

120mm is a moderately wide angle lens for 4x5, and is a very useful focal length.

For 90mm and 120mm I like the Schneider Angulon lenses (not Super Angulon), as they are very compact and perform nicely. They are less expensive than their heavier Super Angulon cousins.

Camera movements are not used a lot for landscapes, and most any camera you get will have enough range.

I have a Toyo AR-4x5 and it works very nicely in the field. It has a Graflok back, so I can interchange if needed. I also have a Toyo CX 4x5, which uses the same lens board as the AR, so I can interchange without a lens board adapter.

Doc W · Jul 2, 2018

I use a Wisner Techical Field with 90mm, 150mm, and 210mm. I have to use a bag bellows with the 90mm. The bellows that came with the camera was optimized for long lenses, which I never use, so I am thinking of getting a single bellows made that might cover them all.

In any case, the Wisner is a great camera with a lot of movements, especially the Technical Field, although you will be surprised by how few you need for landscape photography. Wisner shut its doors ages ago, but you can still pick up a Wisner 4x5 on the used market for not too much money. I believe that the Wisner was based on a Zone VI, but I could be wrong.

If, as you say, you like the idea of the classic lightweight wooden field cameras, then don't bother with the Graphics. They are much more limited.

DREW WILEY · Jul 2, 2018

I've done outdoor work for forty years with both a P67 system, and far more with various view cameras, both 4x5 and 8x10. It would be an extremely rare shot where I DIDN'T find movements distinctly beneficial. Otherwise you could just use a box camera made for sheet film. I happen to prefer relatively long focal length lenses, so need a quite a bit of bellows extension; but if you're going to specialize in wide angle shots you could order an "architectural" version of a 4x5 from someone like
Chamonix which has axial tilts but not base tilts, allowing the front and rear standards to come quite close together, with a bag bellows in between. This will also provide you with a very light compact unit. But you'll sacrifice long focal length lens usage. Ebony also made these kinds of cameras which you might still be able to find, but at considerably higher price than Chamonix. Either of these will have more modern features than the options already mentioned. I use a standard folding Ebony wooden camera for backpacking and airline travel, but a much heavier Sinar Norma monorail system for day use. The Sinar is far more versatile and quicker to use, and accommodates all kinds of different bellows; but it's quite bulky compared to little wooden folders and T-shaped wooden architectural cameras. But over time, most people simply get accustomed to whatever quirks a particular camera might have. Just be beware of anything used which has warpage or punctures in the bellows.

Paul Howell · Jul 2, 2018

Alan Gales said:
Or you could buy a Crown or Speed for shooting hand held and a cheap monorail for when you do need movements. I know some of the entry level Cambo and Calumets are pretty light (six pounds or so). You could also look at Toyo. Since you don't use long lenses you can cut off part of the rail so it is easier to back pack with.

This is combo I use, I have both a Crown and a Speed, tend to use the Crown more as it is lighter and I don't need the focal plane shutter. My view camera is a New View, made in the 40s to early 50s it has double rails, rotating back, and takes the same lens boards as the Speed. I dont shoot wider than 90 which works well on both the Crown and New View. A Grafic View is a nice inexpensive view camera. If you really need a 75 then you need a camera that will take a bellows.

Huub · Jul 3, 2018

I have been using a Shen Hao HZX-IIA for about 5 or 6 years now and i am very happy with the camera. It has all the movements I would ever need for my photography and then quite some more, it is beautifully made and not too heavy to carry around. I use the camera with an universal bellows and a set of 58mm - 75mm - 110mm - 150mm - 240mm and 360/500mm lenses. Except the longest focal length, all are mounted on a flat lensboard. With the 58mm the bellows is tight and movements are limited, but still liberal enough to push the lens out of it's image circle when shifting. The 75mm lens on a flat board is really no problem with this camera and the bellows. If necessary, the bellows is interchangable and a bag bellows is avaliable for the camera.

One other thing i found when i started using a 4x5 camera is that it forced me into a more deliberate, thoughtfull way of shooting. This different way of working also made that my prefered focal lenghts shifted. Where i had a strong preference for wide angle lenses before, i now tend towards the longer focal lenghts with the 4x5. This makes comparing focal lengths between different formats of limited value in my humble opinion.

Mick Fagan · Jul 3, 2018

I too have a Shen Hao HZX45-IIA, somewhere around 10-12 years now. Within reason, this camera can do most things anyone would wish to do. Focal length from 47mm to 320mm. I have used a 58mm Super something from another person shooting alongside me some years ago; I ran bag bellows with that and a flat board, not an issue. It would probably be one of the few wooden folders that can go that wide.

I myself run 65mm, 90mm, 150mm, 250mm. It is possible to use the standard bellows for all of these lenses, but any movements, no matter how small with the 65mm, sort of make the bellows work very hard. It takes about 1 minute to change bellows, either bellows takes minimal storage, so I don't see it as a real issue.

From a practical point of view with portrait work, the 250mm lens allows you to focus quite close. For pulling landscapes, in the 250mm works a treat. I mostly do landscape with mine, followed by architectural, followed by portrait

Mick.

Edit: this was taken with the 65mm with a centre filter, wide angle landscape doesn't get too much better than this. (I would say that, wouldn't I)

https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/diamantina-np-bronco-yard.56466/

RalphLambrecht · Jul 3, 2018

Michael Firstlight said:
I'm considering 4x5 - I currently shoot 6x7 (Pentax 67II and a couple of RBs). I can support up to 4x5 in my darkroom and scanner.

Looking at 4x5s, I am drawn to the classic lightweight wooden field cameras - mostly Wista/Zone IV (cherry/rosewood) models. I shoot mostly landscapes would likely shoot a 75mm and 120mm most of the time based on my typical 6x7 focal length preferences of 45mm and 75mm (which are roughly 22.5mm and 37.5 35mm equivalents), and maybe a 210mm down the road. I've been quite partial to my 45mm Pentax MF lens, but could be convinced to punt to a 90mm 4x5 lens (27mm 35 equiv), but would really miss those extra 5mm or so extra width. I probably would even prefer a 72mm as I love wide angle imaging. Being able to shoot an occasional 47mm (14mm 35 equiv) would be heaven.

The problem is I haven't seen any wooden 4x5 cameras that have all the features I would like. I want full movements with at least a 75mm lens, which I think are limited with most cameras - including the Wistas/Zone IV's) without an interchangable bag bellows, and I would love one with a bail back. The closest one that looks like it fits the bill is a Zone VI or a Wista 45sw (minus the bail back). The zone VI done seem to have great user reviews (bulky, lack smooth focus etc.). I've also considered a Tachihara 4x5, but I don't believe they supports much, if any movements with a 75mm lens.

It is looking like a used Wista 45sw with a bag bellows is my only alternative short of going to a non-wood 4x5 field camera and go without a bail back - but I haven't seen a used 45sw come up yet on eBay (new they are a small fortune at $3K). Can anyone suggest other alternatives?

Sorry to ask such a novice LF question; I don't have a great deal of large format experience.
In my experience, the image circle of the lens and not the camera movements are the limitations of 4x5 imaging; in other words,You run out of lens coverage before you run out of movements or, many lenses do not support all the camera's movements.
Regards,
Mike

guangong · Jul 3, 2018

I have a cherry wood Wista with 120 and 210 lenses. Have contemplated on and off getting a 90mm but have always balked at time of actual purchase. Take mostly what could be called landscape with 4x5. My whole kit, lenses, camera, focusing cloth, meter, etc all fit into a very compact case. No longer need to catty Polaroid back. So far, no decent replacement available.
There is a reason Rolleiflex, Leica and Nikon replaced Graphics in terms of operating speed, but if you enjoy them, have fun. I think a Super D would be fun, but have resisted the urge.....so far!

Doremus Scudder · Jul 3, 2018

I get by just fine with my 75mm Fujinon and a recessed board on my Wista DX with standard pleated bellows. The 75mm's coverage is pretty small and I can vignette easily with this set up. The recessed board really helps here.

However with a 90mm, even on a recessed board, the bellows crimp when using extreme movements at the edge of coverage. I really like bag bellows when working with the 90mm and using extreme movements, e.g., a lot of front rise plus some shift. My Wista SW (basically a DX with interchangeable bellows) is my go-to camera when I anticipate situations like this.

Best,

Doremus

Hatchetman · Jul 3, 2018

I find developing 4x5 film to be such a pain relative to 120 rolls, that I don't do it. Plus many ways to screw up, film holders leaking light. forget to take the dark slide out. forget to cock the shutter. forget to stop down the aperture after focusing. Man, I was having so many problems I gave up on it. Though someone who is very well organized and process oriented should not have a problem.

Sirius Glass · Jul 3, 2018

I use a 3010 Jobo Expert Drum for developing 4"x5" so developing is as easy as 35mm or 120. On the other hand sheet film allows one so many ways to screw up since there of none of the camera interlocks that we have learned to depend on.

DREW WILEY · Jul 3, 2018

The cooperativeness of roll film being spooled is often dependent upon humidity, so I have always found tray development of sheet film easier, and the percent of
mistakes is miniscule. If you can wash dishes without breaking them, you can tray develop without scratches. Either is more far more intuitive for me than anything digital.

Ian Grant · Jul 4, 2018

Alan Gales said:
I had a Tachihara 4x5. You can use a 90mm on a flat board but there is debate about the 75mm. Some felt that they needed a recessed board and some didn't. It would depend upon how much movement you needed. My widest lens was a 90 so I just used a flat board. The Tachi does not support bag bellows.

Like Jeffrey says, most do not feel the need for a lot of movements for landscape photography. If you buy a used camera and it doesn't suit you then you can always sell it and get most of your money back if you bought right. I originally bought a 75mm lens for the Tachi and found it too wide so I immediately flipped it and bought a 90. I sold it for what I paid for it minus the shipping cost. That's a cheap rental fee!

The Tachihara is very similar to my Wista 45DX, I use both 75mm f5.6 and 65mm f8 Super Angulons with flat lens boards. The sectret with the 65mm is to use front and rear back tilt along with front rise, essentially just tilting the camera so as not to include the focus bed in the image. Sounds tricky but in practice it's very easy and fast.

I don't use the 65mm much but when I do it's worth while, I get great images. However sometimes 65mm is a touch too wide and covearge with my 65mm f8 SA is tight no room for movement but I sometimes want something wider than a 90mm. I alreday had a 75mm f8 SA for my 617 camera and had tried it on my Wista then around 2 maybe 3 years ago I found an excellent bargain priced 75mm f5.6 SA via one of the Forums and now wish I'd bought one earlier.

Choice of FL is rather depenent on what and whereyou shoot, in my case Industrial/Archaeology landscape often tight cramped spaces where WA lens come into their own.

Ian

esearing · Jul 17, 2018

Classic cameras are fine but are usually heavy and clunky in movements.

The Chamonix 45N2 camera allows a lens as wide as 55mm. I commonly use 65mm, 90mm, and 135mm lenses on it, all with movements. No bag bellows or recessed lens boards needed. The camera folds down to a neat small package and weighs about 3 pounds. The Nagaoka and Ikeda Anba are also small and light but bellows are totally compressed with a 65mm lens. The Chamonix also allows longer lenses up to 500mm with a special front mount adapter. Worth a look at their site for camera info.

Also get an SP445 tank from stearman press. You can process one to four sheets at a time which makes learning 4x5 a bit more tolerable. At first, take two of every shot, process the first one , then make adjustments to your time/agitation for the second backup shot if needed.

John Earley · Jul 24, 2018

I use a Shen Hao HZX45-IIA and don't have any real issues using 65-90-150-210-300-400T lenses.

Something else to consider, particularly if you shoot chromes: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/center-filter-for-wide-angle-lenses.88636/

BradS · Jul 25, 2018

Michael Firstlight said:
I'm considering 4x5 - I currently shoot 6x7 (Pentax 67II and a couple of RBs). I can support up to 4x5 in my darkroom and scanner.

Looking at 4x5s, I am drawn to the classic lightweight wooden field cameras - mostly Wista/Zone IV (cherry/rosewood) models. I shoot mostly landscapes would likely shoot a 75mm and 120mm most of the time based on my typical 6x7 focal length preferences of 45mm and 75mm (which are roughly 22.5mm and 37.5 35mm equivalents), and maybe a 210mm down the road. I've been quite partial to my 45mm Pentax MF lens, but could be convinced to punt to a 90mm 4x5 lens (27mm 35 equiv), but would really miss those extra 5mm or so extra width. I probably would even prefer a 72mm as I love wide angle imaging. Being able to shoot an occasional 47mm (14mm 35 equiv) would be heaven.

The problem is I haven't seen any wooden 4x5 cameras that have all the features I would like. I want full movements with at least a 75mm lens, which I think are limited with most cameras - including the Wistas/Zone IV's) without an interchangable bag bellows, and I would love one with a bail back. The closest one that looks like it fits the bill is a Zone VI or a Wista 45sw (minus the bail back). The zone VI done seem to have great user reviews (bulky, lack smooth focus etc.). I've also considered a Tachihara 4x5, but I don't believe they supports much, if any movements with a 75mm lens.

It is looking like a used Wista 45sw with a bag bellows is my only alternative short of going to a non-wood 4x5 field camera and go without a bail back - but I haven't seen a used 45sw come up yet on eBay (new they are a small fortune at $3K). Can anyone suggest other alternatives?

Sorry to ask such a novice LF question; I don't have a great deal of large format experience.

Regards,
Mike

You're over thinking this....suffering from analysis paralysis. Just get a 4x5 wood field add a lens and all the other bits that you need and try it. I'd suggest something like the Shen Hao TZ45 or PTB45 or even their non-folding camera. The Tachiharas are fine but they seem to be way over priced in today's market. It wasn't so long ago that one could be purchased brand new from any of the big camera stores for less than $600.

There are new designs coming out too...for example, google Intrepid camera or, check out this guy's kickstarter... Dead Link Removed

Most people who do 4x5 and 8x10 will tell you that they see differently with the Large Format camera, focal length equivalents do not really translate well from the theoretical to the reality.

So, yeah, get a camera and lens, any one, a ShenHao, a Tachihara, a Zone VI, even a Crown Graphic and the stock 135mm will do. Learn the process and accumulate the necessary peripherals and keep looking.

Considering 4x5

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