Confusion about fixer/toner sequence

Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2022

Hi -

I have fibre prints that i have developed, stopped, fixed and washed.

Where in the process do I have to re-fix if I intend to bleach, sepia tone, and selenium tone?

Is it between the sepia and selenium step? Or does the use of Selenium keep me from needing to refix?

R.Gould · Mar 23, 2022

From the fix stage wash, then go straight to the toner, soak the prints well first if dry, then bleach wash and tone in the sepia bath, wash and dry as normal, if after bleaching you decide you lke the bleached look of the print, and it does happen, it has happened to some of my prints, then re fix, wash and dry, but if toning in sepia just wash the finished fiber print again for around an hpur if split toning in sepia/selinum then selinum tone after washing following the sepia, still no need to re fix
Richard

Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2022

R.Gould said:
From the fix stage wash, then go straight to the toner, soak the prints well first if dry, then bleach wash and tone in the sepia bath, wash and dry as normal, if after bleaching you decide you lke the bleached look of the print, and it does happen, it has happened to some of my prints, then re fix, wash and dry, but if toning in sepia just wash the finished fiber print again for around an hpur if split toning in sepia/selinum then selinum tone after washing following the sepia, still no need to re fix
Richard

Sorry, Richard...I know I'm being thickheaded....but want to make sure I'm getting this right

I'm bleaching the print to the point where it's essentially erased before redeveloping in the Sepia toner. So, if I know I'm going in that direction, it sounds like it's:

Beach ----> Wash -----> Sepia -----> Wash -----> Selenium -----> final wash

Do i have that right?

MattKing · Mar 23, 2022

Roy Keane said:
Sorry, Richard...I know I'm being thickheaded....but want to make sure I'm getting this right

I'm bleaching the print to the point where it's essentially erased before redeveloping in the Sepia toner. So, if I know I'm going in that direction, it sounds like it's:

Beach ----> Wash -----> Sepia -----> Wash -----> Selenium -----> final wash

Do i have that right?

You do.
The only time I add a fixing step is if I intentionally decide to stop the Sepia step before it is complete. In that case only I'll add the fix step after a rinse after the Sepia step.
For clarity, that bleach needs to be a rehalogenating bleach.

Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2022

MattKing said:
You do.
The only time I add a fixing step is if I intentionally decide to stop the Sepia step before it is complete. In that case only I'll add the fix step after a rinse after the Sepia step.
For clarity, that bleach needs to be a rehalogenating bleach.

Right....if I was using Farmer's Reducer after the first fix, then I would need to refix, right?

grain elevator · Mar 23, 2022

Does selenium toner still do something after sepia toning to completion?

grain elevator · Mar 23, 2022

Roy Keane said:
Right....if I was using Farmer's Reducer after the first fix, then I would need to refix, right?

I think Farmer's reducer would fix away the silver or most of it and leave nothing to be toned.

Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2022

grain elevator said:
Does selenium toner still do something after sepia toning to completion?

I meant to ask this as well. I wasn't really trying a split-toning situation, so I was using selenium for whatever archival benefits there are in using it as a last step before the final wash. But I have to admit I wasn't sure there were any benefits.

Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2022

grain elevator said:
I think Farmer's reducer would fix away the silver or most of it and leave nothing to be toned.

I meant that, if I was using Farmer's Reducer to kick up the highlights a little, I would normally wash and refix. But I wouldn't use Farmer's Reducer prior to redeveloping in toner. For that, it's rehalogenating bleach

MattKing · Mar 23, 2022

Sepia toning is more likely to provide archival benefits than selenium, because it is easier to fully tone in sepia than it is with selenium. In both cases, archival requires completeness.
If you aren't split toning using incomplete sepia toning, there isn't much point in following up with selenium.

Roy Keane · Mar 23, 2022

MattKing said:
Sepia toning is more likely to provide archival benefits than selenium, because it is easier to fully tone in sepia than it is with selenium. In both cases, archival requires completeness.
If you aren't split toning using incomplete sepia toning, there isn't much point in following up with selenium.

Good to know. Thanks very much!

cliveh · Mar 24, 2022

The trick with sepia toner is to make the original print slightly darker than you prefer and bring it back after bleaching to where you want. As already said you don't need selenium, as a sepia toned print will give archival permanence.

Roy Keane · Mar 24, 2022

cliveh said:
The trick with sepia toner is to make the original print slightly darker than you prefer and bring it back after bleaching to where you want. As already said you don't need selenium, as a sepia toned print will give archival permanence.

I will give this a try

mshchem · Mar 24, 2022

And if you are using only selenium toner, depending on the paper, you may need to make less dense, lighter print. The much admired Forte Polywarmtone paper requires a significant, 10-15% reduction in exposure to account for selenium toning and dry down.
Ilford and Foma papers are not nearly as dramatic. And RC papers are easier to use Se toner.

markbau · Mar 25, 2022

First a question: What the hell is a "rehalogenating bleach." Never heard that term.

There are two ways to sepia tone.
The old fashioned way is to bleach the print to oblivion and then redevelop where you get a majorly "ye olde" look. Some people like it, I don't.
The other way is to use a very weak bleach for a very short period of time so that only the highlights get bleached and then a redevelop (I use thio) that only affects the highlights. This is essentially what Kenna does so exquisitely.

You can then selenium tone which only affects the shadow areas for a split tone affect, some people detest split toning, I love it.

Oh, and if you want subtlety, don't use warm tone papers, no matter what you do with a warm tone paper, they will go all over brown when they are in the same room as sepia toner. For subtlety I use Ilford MG classic.

MattKing · Mar 25, 2022

markbau said:
First a question: What the hell is a "rehalogenating bleach." Never heard that term.

The bleaches we use in in two stage toners are rehalogenating - they have excess halogens in them, and when they bleach out the developed silver the excess halogens bind with the bleached silver in a print and together they form a silver halide that is again capable of being exposed to light and developed again - usually by the second stage of the toner.
Bleaches that don't have excess halogen in them bleach out the developed silver but don't replace it with a silver halide. I could be wrong, but I believe they have some role in reversal processing, and of course out in the non-photographic world.

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