Conflicting discussion about many rolls from Kodak E-6 5L kit in single-use mode

[charky]

I have read through this 2008 thread,

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

But it seems that there is a huge factor-of-2 difference in the number of rolls that can be processed which is not resolved in this thread.

amuderick says "I keep my Kodak E-6 Kit chemicals in their original bottles. I measure out the amount needed to mix 500ml of solution at a time and process 4 120 rolls. "

srs5694 says " Kodak's 5-liter E-6 kit costs about $50 from Adorama or B&H (but B&H won't ship it). That's enough to process 20 rolls of film (at 250ml per roll),"

Nigel says "I do not run the Kodak kit to exhaustion. I like to use fresh chemistry for consistency, so I mix what I need and discard after one use. This means that I can get 20 rolls of 35mm equivilent from the 5L kit."

amuderick then says "I use 125ml per roll (500ml solution for 4 rolls of 120 film) and have had no problems. The last round of slides after month seven had the same great colors as the first batch.

I think only running 20 rolls on the kit is a mistake and a waste. However, I also think that re-using the chemicals and adjusting for time is asking for trouble. The best bet is to use the minimum fluid volume you can in your tank. In my tank that corresponds nicely to the minimum amount of chemicals recommended in the Kodak publication (42 rolls per 5 liters of developer)."


So I wonder what is going on here: My tank needs 590 mL to cover 2 rolls of 120 which are spliced (or one 220 roll). I could probably use 500 mL of each Kodak solution and dilute to 590 safely (?), thus getting me 20 rolls of 120 processed from 5L.

I have trouble imagining a tank than can hold a 120 rolls in 125 mL. Do such high density tanks exist? What about 250 mL solution tanks than can hold a 220 roll (or 2 spliced 120s)?

 

[domaz]

My tank can do a 220 in 270ml solution (Jobo 2500 series)- I do 300ml to be safe. It's called rotary development/Jobo method. You just need a Jobo tank or a print drum that is designed to be turned on it's side and constantly rotated. This increases economy dramatically.

 

[nick mulder]

This increases economy dramatically.

agree, and then there is sheet film - sure its one or two pics only, but the efficiency relative to film area is even more so by a large factor... If you could somehow wrap your roll film around a drum helical fashion so it didn't spiral towards the centre I think you could get away with the min capacity of developer per soup

 

[charky]

My tank can do a 220 in 270ml solution (Jobo 2500 series)- I do 300ml to be safe. It's called rotary development/Jobo method. You just need a Jobo tank or a print drum that is designed to be turned on it's side and constantly rotated. This increases economy dramatically.

Interesting, so the tank is only about 'half full' and constantly rotated on its side. Does it require one of those pricey automated processing systems or is there a manual or partially manual way to use the rotary method?

 

[TimmyMac]

I have a pretty unscientific method of using the stuff, but for a 1.5L batch I'll develop a full 5-roll paterson tank twice, either 5x35mm, 6x120, or 3x220. The second time I add 25 seconds or so to the first developer.

 

[srs5694]

Interesting, so the tank is only about 'half full' and constantly rotated on its side. Does it require one of those pricey automated processing systems or is there a manual or partially manual way to use the rotary method?

I've never developed this way, but I've heard of people using this approach with regular inversion-agitation tanks. I have a distinct memory of somebody suggesting this as a way of economizing with a particular model of Soviet/Russian tank, but in principle it could work with Paterson and similar tanks.

Another extreme method of economizing I've heard of, but again never tried, is loading two rolls in the space normally used by one, by loading two rolls in one groove, emulsion sides away from each other, so you could fit two 35mm or 220 rolls in one reel.

 

[2F/2F]

I agree that when you consider the time involved and the risk of uninsured user error, only getting 20 rolls from a $50 kit does not seem like an extreme value over lab processing (though it is a HUGE savings with sheet film). It has been a little while for me, but I go through the chems twice, then if I want to cross process, I use them a third time. First time through for the most critical transparencies (mostly medium format), and for pushing and pulling. Second time, the less critical stuff (mostly 35mm), with normal processing. As I said, if I have anything to cross process, I then use the chemistry a third time through. If not, I dump the first developer, and take everything else to a disposal center. Both batches always seem to turn out perfectly fine.

I double roll 120 film onto 220 reels so as to not waste chemistry capacity, or mostly just use 220 film (but that is likely not long for this world). For 4x5, I used the stuff one shot in a Jobo 3010 tank using 33 mL per sheet with a 210 mL minimum (as recommended by Jobo in the instructions for the tank here: http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/instructions/instructions_misc_expert_drums.htm). I needed to hunt to find the information when I first got the tank, as I got it second hand with no instructions, and nobody on the Internet sites I tried at the time seemed to know how to properly use the thing. I stored all my chemicals in 1 L and 500 mL bottles with the air squeezed out, which definitely caused a bit of a "space crisis" in my bathroom.

I have never tried transparency film on a third run through E-6, though I have run "non-important" neg film a third time through C-41 chems, and things have been just fine for non-critical pictures (35mm snapshots, sporting events, etc.)

 

[PVia]

2F - When you say you go through the chems twice, are you, say, developing your first-run films and then storing the chems until the next run you have on another day...or are you running the first and second runs on the same day? Or...?

 

[2F/2F]

2F - When you say you go through the chems twice, are you, say, developing your first-run films and then storing the chems until the next run you have on another day...or are you running the first and second runs on the same day? Or...?

It depends on the film I have to do. I usually have done two liters in a day. I rebottle the used liters, and keep them separate from the unused liters. When I go to do my next two one-liter batches, depending on what I am processing, I will use either unused or once-used chemistry. As I said, I usually do medium format stuff with clean chemistry, and less critical 35mm stuff with the used chemistry.

It has been a little while since I have done it, but I still have three 5 L kits here and some film to process, so I may do it soon. Most of the time I shoot transparencies, it is 4x5, so that is how most of my chemistry usually gets used up. Any time I put any developer in a Jobo tank, I chuck it afterward, due to fear (perhaps unrealistic fear) that all the sloshing leads to a lot of oxidation compared to using the chemicals in inversion tanks.

BTW, it is such a given if you are used to color processing with reuse that I neglected to specifically mention that additional first developer time is added for the second run through.

 

[PVia]

OK, so all developer is used one-shot and it's just the other chems that get reused..?

 

[2F/2F]

OK, so all developer is used one-shot and it's just the other chems that get reused..?

I use everything one shot in a Jobo Expert drum.

I use everything "two shot" when using hand inversion tanks.

 

[PVia]

OK, thanks!

 

[2F/2F]

OK, thanks!

You are welcome.

It seems to work fine for me, though I do not claim to be an expert.

I am not sure if discarding the developer is really necessary after using it in a Jobo. I was just trained with the habit of never reusing developer that has been run through one of them, and it stuck.

I wonder if the limiting factor in obtaining "proper" results with reuse of E-6 is just (or mainly) the first developer, or if it is the other chemicals that go off as well due to capacity being reached. If it is really just the first developer that is exhausted, it would be easy enough to stretch the kit by buying separate first developer and reusing the rest of the chems.

If I did this a lot, I would try to figure out how to do a replenished process.

 

[domaz]

Reusing the chemicals in the Kodak 5L kit is bad juju. You may get decent results but then again you may not- and probably if you plotted your results with a test strip and densiometer you would be horrified.

The cheapest way to get going with Rotary development is to get a Jobo 1500 tank with proper reels, a plastic storage tub for holding water and an aquarium heater that either goes to 100 degrees or can be modded to (take out the stop bit in the thermostat). Put all your chemicals in the storage tub with heated water- including wash water. Then float your jobo tank in the water and hand rotate it (BTZS style) in the heated water.

 

[shootpositive]

I use the JOBO CPE 2 with the Kodak 5L kit.
My JOBO 1520 takes 240mL for 2 rolls of 120 or 1 roll of 220.

If you use the chemicals 1 shot then you'll only get the 20 rolls that Kodak describes.

If you re-use the chemicals and store them properly, I think you can get twice that much.
I do 2 rolls of 35mm, 5 times per liter. I only mix a liter at a time. That is 50 rolls but if I don't use the chemicals for a while and I didn't remember to get the oxygen out of the containers, then it's less.

Bad developer is pretty noticeable - washed out colors, lower contrast, more grain.
The most important thing to do is keep your developer happy. If you don't use the chemicals one shot, then you have to take care to keep the chemicals cool and oxygen free (except the bleach which you should shake or aerate to keep it fresh)

 

[shootpositive]

Oh and you should add about 30 seconds to the developer time for each reuse because when you put the used developer back in the canister, it is weaker and therefore takes longer

 

[domaz]

I mix my E-6 chemicals in batches 600ml at a time (unless I need more). I then run two rolls of 120 loaded onto one 2500-series reel with 300ml at a time (two procesisng runs). I can mix up 8 of these batches with the 5L kit, meaning I can get 32 rolls of 120 out of it. That is all with one-shot chemicals- no need to mess around with recapturing chemcials and guessing on how long to extend developer time. Price per roll comes out to $1.81, way cheaper than any commercial processing you can get.

 

[Bob Carnie]

By the time you notice the problem it is probably too late.
I endorse single shot chemistry for all film processing.
Maybe a bit more expensive, but when you consider the effort you make to get the images , not so expensive.

I use the JOBO CPE 2 with the Kodak 5L kit.
My JOBO 1520 takes 240mL for 2 rolls of 120 or 1 roll of 220.

If you use the chemicals 1 shot then you'll only get the 20 rolls that Kodak describes.

If you re-use the chemicals and store them properly, I think you can get twice that much.
I do 2 rolls of 35mm, 5 times per liter. I only mix a liter at a time. That is 50 rolls but if I don't use the chemicals for a while and I didn't remember to get the oxygen out of the containers, then it's less.

Bad developer is pretty noticeable - washed out colors, lower contrast, more grain.
The most important thing to do is keep your developer happy. If you don't use the chemicals one shot, then you have to take care to keep the chemicals cool and oxygen free (except the bleach which you should shake or aerate to keep it fresh)