Confirmation of ULF Film Shipped From ILFORD Photo / HARMAN tech

"but why do you request 7x11, could you not work with some other similar format? Standard 8x10" for example is not far off, and you could just mask a little at the bottom and top to get the aspect ratio."

Typically sizes like 7x11, 5x12 etc... are contact printed. Yes you could crop an 8x10 to approximately a 6x10 image - a sizable crop and smaller contact print. One point of interest about 7x11 is that aspect ratio wise it is like a mini 12x20 (1.57:1 vs 1.66:1).

I personally like to shoot full frame and like to print the full negative. It is very rare that I crop, whether enlarging or contact printing. Besides... I have the camera, I have invested in holders, and I want to shoot it and not turn it into a museum piece.

Personal preferences I guess.

Ordering enough Film

I found Photowarehouse to be a great option. I used them to get film that was not supported by Ilford (prior to the latest round) - such as Plate, 4x10, 7x11, 5x12 and ULF. When I needed a standard size film, I bought Ilford packaged film, and yes paid the premium to have it factory cut and boxed. What was great about PW was I could monitor my film consumption and place orders for it when I needed to restock a size etc...

I restocked on all of my oddball and ULF sizes before they ran out of film stock and I was beginning to look for other solutions when the offer from Simon and Ilford came up. I placed orders mostly in support and not because of a burning need. By the time the next order timing occurs I will be placing a larger order of 7x11 film... and I hope other shooters of that format will as well.

Steve

Steve_7x said:

Typically sizes like 7x11, 5x12 etc... are contact printed. Yes you could crop an 8x10 to approximately a 6x10 image - a sizable crop and smaller contact print. One point of interest about 7x11 is that aspect ratio wise it is like a mini 12x20

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I didn't realise that ULF was about "mini".

I believe that folks who want to shoot 7x11 or 5x12 are better off using standard 8x10, where they have more cameras to choose from, and they have the added benefit of a format that can be enlarged when desired. Oh yeah, there is also a variety of colour film.

kthalmann said:

There are four manufacturers offering cameras in the 4x10 size TODAY (soon to be a fifth - Fotoman) and five companies making 4x10 film holders. I get multiple emails every week from people with questions about 4x10 cameras, lenses and film holders.

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I could shoot 4x10" in my 8x10" camera whenever I wanted to, but I could never shoot 8x10" if I had a 4x10" camera.

Petzi said:

I could shoot 4x10" in my 8x10" camera whenever I wanted to, but I could never shoot 8x10" if I had a 4x10" camera.

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I'm not sure I understand you're point. If I wanted to shoot 8x10, of course I'd use an 8x10 camera. However, if I want to shoot 4x10 I see no point in carrying the weight and bulk of an 8x10 camera. Just like I see no point in carrying a 14x17 camera to shoot 7x17.

My point was that since there are several manufacturers making 4x10 cameras, there must be a market for 4x10 film. Somebody is buying those cameras.

I'm not bashing Ilford. I just thought it would be better for Simon to know that Ilford lost my business to the competition this time around, why they lost my business and what they can do to gain my business next time around. If they still chose not to offer their films in the 4x10 size, at least they have made an informed decision.

Kerry

Petzi said:

I didn't realise that ULF was about "mini".

I believe that folks who want to shoot 7x11 or 5x12 are better off using standard 8x10, where they have more cameras to choose from, and they have the added benefit of a format that can be enlarged when desired. Oh yeah, there is also a variety of colour film.

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Although Ilford included the term ULF in their special order program, they also offered several other smaller sizes not in their standard catalog. This included sizes as small as 2x3.

Not everybody wants to shoot 8x10 and crop to some other aspect ratio. Not everybody enlarges their negatives (as Steve pointed out) and not everybody shoots color. Otherwise, Ilford would not have offered sizes like 6½x8½, 5x12, 7x11 and 10x12. The fact they they received enough orders for all these sizes, other than 7x11, to make it worth their while shows that there are a lot of people out their don't just want to shoot 8x10 and crop.

Kerry

I didn't realise that 4x10" cameras were so much smaller and lighter than 8x10". I would think that 8x10" is a lot more versatile, and that it makes close to no sense to have an extra 4x10" camera.

Is there some website where we can check if it is okay to buy a particular camera format? I have a 14x17 and a 10x12, and I am worried now that I may be perceived as lacking good sense.

Petzi said:

I didn't realise that 4x10" cameras were so much smaller and lighter than 8x10". I would think that 8x10" is a lot more versatile, and that it makes close to no sense to have an extra 4x10" camera.

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Way too late on that count...

I believe that folks who want to shoot 8x10 are better off using standard 4x5, where they have more cameras to choose from, and they have the added benefit of a format that can be easily enlarged when desired. Oh yeah, there is also a larger variety of colour film.

Of course, then there's this opinion...

I believe that folks who want to shoot 4x5 are better off using standard 120 rollfilm, where they have more cameras to choose from, and they have the added benefit of a format that can be more easily enlarged when desired. Oh yeah, there is also a larger variety of colour film.

But then again, there's this well qualified opinion as well...

I believe that folks who want to shoot 120 are better off using standard 35mm, where they have more cameras to choose from, and they have the added benefit of a format that can be very easily enlarged when desired. Oh yeah, there is also an even larger variety of colour film.

Pretty soon, we're all shooting Minox for contact printing, and the film produces all go out of business because we use so little film per shot...


---Michael

Petzi, you'd argue with a fence post. People shoot the formats they shoot for personal reasons. Telling them they are wrong is, to quote my father in law, "bloody arrogant." It really does not matter whether it makes sense to you.

Come on guys - we as ULF and LF photographers are experiencing a fine dining experience and there is absolutely no reason to get on Ilford for any reason.

Fact. If you found yourself short of financial resources to accumulate sufficient quantity to get a particular size cut on this go around, start the communication process among others wanting the same size to insure that you can accomplish your objective on the next iteration. That may mean that you need to find a way to put some money away for this purpose but it is both attainable and reasonable to ask you to do so. This is business and it is not a personal slam on anyone in any way shape or form so get over it. Ilford wants to do business with you and is extending their hand to do so. Find a way to make it work out and communication with an open mind is the first step and by the way, chest freezers are cheap.

For some reason we continue to want to regress to the Photo Warehouse days or imply that because the new owners of Ilford will not sell cheap film to Photowarehouse you have a reason to vent. Like many I also appreciated the opportunity but it is not coming back so please understand the facts behind this fluke event. The previous owners of Ilford unintentionally let their film production get ahead of their sales and Photowarehouse was the beneficiary of being able to purchase outdated bulk film for a low price for which they cut it to size and sold it while it lasted. The first thing the new owners of Ilford wanted to do was excise the waste and as a result - there is a zero chance that the Photowarehouse deal will ever be a possibility for the obvious reasons stated. I spoke to the parties in question personally when doing the TMY deal. It simply makes no economic sense for the new owners of Ilford to do so.

I do not subscribe to the glass is half full approach that many here want to employ and do not for a minute feel that we should get ahead of the curve and buy a Minox. The ball is in your court so get with the program and make it happen whatever format you shoot. I am getting ready to raise my champagne glass as soon as my film arrives and plans are to shoot it with abandon to make another large purchase as soon as possible!

By all means SMILE! It sure beats the alternative....

My reference to Photowarehouse was more of a reference that I had stocked up on film from them before the very generous offer from Ilford to cut film in the unique sizes and an alternate solution was in place. When I already have over a 100 sheets I do not need to order another 100 (yet!) - so I placed a small order so I could contribute.

Simon... again... I wish to express my thanks to what you and Ilford have done... I hope you continue your efforts to support all of us shooting odd ball formats. I think it would be great to get 4x10 added to the mix - as Kerry has suggested.

Cheers!

Steve

Steve, I was also in the position this time of placing a very small order for 7x11 because there were other things I needed to deal with first. I'll place a much larger order next time; with any luck, together we can come up with enough to make it viable for Harman to fill the order.

I want to reiterate my own thanks to Simon and the Harman team. I understand the business issues involved, and I'm thrilled that they're going the extra mile to try to be responsive to our very specialized needs. I'm happy to try to arrange my orders to help make this a viable proposition for them.

Format Integrity

May as well write a Haiku with an extra syllable, a sonnet with one less line... hey man lets just chop 2 inches off of the side of that Cezanne so it will fit in the frame... does it really matter if you take the poignant open phrasing of Miles Davis and just ‘squeeze’ it a little so you can get an extra song on the CD... all the notes are still there... it must be the same rendition... if the first violinist can’t make the performance what the heck just substitute a tuba... in the dark between the sheets is there really any difference between the sublime intimacy of being with someone you love and ‘having one off’ with a plastic blowup doll... certainly if Giacometti had just ‘squished’ his femalefigures a little the work would have had the same elegant rapport with the space around it...

Formats have an integral resonance that shapes vision... an image that floats like a dream is suffocated or lost in by the smallest variation in the format... cropping certainly doesn’t cut it for contact printing.

Cheers, Annie

PS... been out of the loop for the last few months and I need some 7x11... a few hundred sheets would be wonderful... any suppliers at this time? Looks like I missed both the J&C (sorry John I messed up AGAIN!) and Ilford orders ... I definately wish to be included in the next big order.

mark said:

Petzi, you'd argue with a fence post. People shoot the formats they shoot for personal reasons. Telling them they are wrong is, to quote my father in law, "bloody arrogant." It really does not matter whether it makes sense to you.

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Your offensive post does not get any better by quoting your father in law.

I am sure the people who have personal reasons for shooting their personal formats have personal arrangements for having their film cut, so they don't need to participate in this thread.

Michael Kadillak said:

Come on guys - we as ULF and LF photographers are experiencing a fine dining experience and there is absolutely no reason to get on Ilford for any reason.

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That is basically my whole point.

Petzi said:

I didn't realise that 4x10" cameras were so much smaller and lighter than 8x10". I would think that 8x10" is a lot more versatile, and that it makes close to no sense to have an extra 4x10" camera.

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Michael,

Yes, 4x10 cameras are significantly smaller than 8x10 models and are lighter as well. I have no desire to backpack with an 8x10, but have several long, multiday backpacking trips planned with the 4x10. The difference is weight and bulk is significant.

4x10 will never be as popular as 8x10, but it does have a steady and growing following. Canham, Wisner, Lotus and Patrick Alt all make 4x10 cameras, and Fotoman has announced a 4x10 model that will be shipping in June. Canham, Lotus, AWB and S&S all make holders in the 4x10 size. 4x10 film is available from Kodak, Bergger and J&C (Efke PL100, J&C 200 and J&C 400). With multiple camera, holder and film options, 4x10 is a well-supported format, not some personal one-of-a-kind oddball format.

Kerry

Michael Kadillak said:

Come on guys - we as ULF and LF photographers are experiencing a fine dining experience and there is absolutely no reason to get on Ilford for any reason.

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But only if you live in the USA Michael


Barry

Michael Kadillak said:

Come on guys - we as ULF and LF photographers are experiencing a fine dining experience and there is absolutely no reason to get on Ilford for any reason.

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Michael,

I hope my posts in this thread do not come across as harsh and negative towards Ilford. If they do, that was not my intent. Quite the opposite. I was trying to let them know that I'd love the opportunity to buy their film in my desired sizes, and hopefully convince them to offer those sizes next time around. I'm thrilled that they offered this special ULF production run and wish them nothing but success. I hope this proves to be a sustainable business model for Ilford and that we see similar offers from them long into the future.

If nothing else, perhaps next time they could include 4x10 as one of the sizes people could pre-order, and then if there aren't enough orders placed (like with 7x11 this time), they could say, "sorry, not enough orders to make cutting this size feasible". That would put the onus on people like me to step forward and put our money where our mouths are. It would be hard to fault a manufacturer for not supporting a format when there is no support from the photographers themselves.

Michael Kadillak said:

Fact. If you found yourself short of financial resources to accumulate sufficient quantity to get a particular size cut on this go around, start the communication process among others wanting the same size to insure that you can accomplish your objective on the next iteration.

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I tried to do that this time around, but evidently it was too little too late (my fault, I had incorrectly assumed 4x10 would be included and was suprised it wasn't when I went to place my order). I did post pleas in this, and other forums for 4x10 shooters to step forward and be counted. Six other 4x10 shooters did step forward (many willing to place sizable orders), but Ilford had already made a decision to not include 4x10 in their offerings. Hopefully, next time we can act soon enough to accomplish our goal.

Michael Kadillak said:

For some reason we continue to want to regress to the Photo Warehouse days or imply that because the new owners of Ilford will not sell cheap film to Photowarehouse you have a reason to vent.

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Actually, Dan is the only one to express those sentiments in this thread. I've got my chest freezer all picked out and will be picking it up as soon as my film order arrives. I realize the reality Ilford is facing, and think their new business model will be successful. It makes a lot more sense for them to gauge interest up front to determine how much film to cut in each size, and then let photographers stock up and provide their own short term and low term storage solutions. It's much better to have the film in the hands of photographers, stored as they see fit, than have it sitting on dealers shelves going out of date and costing dealers and Ilford money.

I want this business model to work for Ilford and wish them nothing but success. As long as once or twice yearly ULF special order programs continue to prove profitable for Ilford, they will likely continue to offer them. And that's what I really want and am prepared to support.

Michael Kadillak said:

I am getting ready to raise my champagne glass as soon as my film arrives and plans are to shoot it with abandon to make another large purchase as soon as possible!

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You make a good point. I know that with a freezer full of my favorite films in all my favorite sizes, and the prospect of ordering more when I run out, I'll be much more likely to also shoot with abandon. If something is in short supply, there is a tendency for people to hoard it and use it with reluctance. I think it would be hard to grow as a photographer if you have to ration your film supply for fear that once it's gone, it's gone. So, I probably ordered more film than I need, but I'd rather have too much (it will keep) than too little. I'm getting back into black and white photography after over 15 years of shooting nothing but color. I plan to make many mistakes, and hopefully a decent image or two along the way.

Kerry

Petzi said:

I believe that folks who want to shoot 7x11 or 5x12 are better off using standard 8x10, where they have more cameras to choose from, and they have the added benefit of a format that can be enlarged when desired. Oh yeah, there is also a variety of colour film.

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Are you the Petzi who posts on the Fotoimpex Forum suggesting that you prefer to use 220 film? Surely there is more of an emulsion choice in 120 format?

Barry

Barry, I think I am getting the point of your post, but you are somewhat misleading here.

220 film has actual advantages compared to 120. It is twice as long and it has no backing paper which could cause problems with film flatness and film transport. You could not say that 7x11" has any actual technical advantages over 8x10".

Or in other words, 220 has good reason to exist, and I doubt that this is the case with some of the more obscure sheet film formats. I think people should try to stick with what's available here.

I suggest starting a new thread if you want to discuss 220 vs. 120.

Too bad a person has to fit a camera format to a film instead of buying film for an existing camera.

What's needed is not more film; What's needed is a film cutting service.

Petzi said:

Barry, I think I am getting the point of your post, but you are somewhat misleading here.

220 film has actual advantages compared to 120. It is twice as long and it has no backing paper which could cause problems with film flatness and film transport. You could not say that 7x11" has any actual technical advantages over 8x10".

Or in other words, 220 has good reason to exist, and I doubt that this is the case with some of the more obscure sheet film formats. I think people should try to stick with what's available here.

I suggest starting a new thread if you want to discuss 220 vs. 120.

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Sorry Petzi, my post was more than a little 'Tongue in cheek'!

I have started using the 5x12" format for contact printing, I also have an 8x10" camera. I cannot enlarge either of these and never intended to do so (well probably). But the contact print from both of these formats are very different. I don't think you will understand why people use these formats unless you see some results. I could make 4x10" prints from the 8x10", but they would have a different 'feel' to the 5x12".

BTW I would also like more 220 emulsions as I have a 220 back for my 5x4"".

Barry

BarryWilkinson said:

But only if you live in the USA Michael


Barry

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For all of my brothers in LF and ULF that live abroad, I am trult sorry and disappointed that for reasons that are beyond our collective contral I have learned that you are not able to gain access to the same photographic products that we have access to here in the US.

I keep believing that there must be some way to cross the pond and not lose your shirt in the process.

Here is an idea. Set up a workshop for Michael and Paula in Europe and have them stock up the vehicle that they ship for transportation when they arrive with sheet film. Meet them in the country and they drop off your film and off they go to shoot. Surely there must be other alternatives.

When things get difficult innovation is the only alternative.

Cheers!