Concentrated developers

Stuart Spigel · Nov 10, 2017

I am interested in compounding a general purpose film developer for medium and 4x5 formats aiming for maximum shelf life and concentration. There is plenty of info on Rodinal-type developers but wonder just how concentrated you could make a PQ or MQ developer? Basically, I guess, how much of the ingredients, especially sulfite and carbonate you could get into a liter. I am currently using Sprint standard developer and like the 1:9 dilution which makes a gallon cubitainer go a long way, but it costs $68 plus $18 for shipping!!

Thanks.

Alan Johnson · Nov 10, 2017

I don't know of any recognised homebrew developers based on it but about the most concentrated sulfite is this:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/potassium-sulfite-45-solution/
!+9 gives 45g/L sulfite,
P and Q look at the msds for DDX, should give some idea.
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/ilford/DD-X.PDF

Stuart Spigel · Nov 10, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
I don't know of any recognised homebrew developers based on it but about the most concentrated sulfite is this:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/potassium-sulfite-45-solution/
!+9 gives 45g/L sulfite,
P and Q look at the msds for DDX, should give some idea.
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/ilford/DD-X.PDF

Thanks, Alan.

I will also see if Wikipedia cites the solubility of these salts in water.

darkroommike · Nov 10, 2017

Kalogen is a MQ version of Rodinal, and Ian Grant has published some concentrated paper developer formulas his approach might work for film developers, too.

Alan Johnson · Nov 11, 2017

If you are not familiar with techniqes of small scale industrial type synthesis , it may be hazardous to attempt the manufacture of a PQ- sulfite concentrate as there are no previous instructions for safe procedure.
For instance, the concentrated sulfite may emit the choking SO2 and HQ solid or vapor may be carcinogenic.
There are easier, safer, powder developers.

Ian Grant · Nov 11, 2017

I switched to Pyrocat HD over a decade ago, it's a two part concentrated developer, Part A keeps up to 3 years made up in water in good storage bottles, glass or HD plastics and that's partially full as it's getting used. The sectret is reasonably fresh Metabisulphite when making the stock solution.

Alan Johnson said:
If you are not familiar with techniqes of small scale industrial type synthesis , it may be hazardous to attempt the manufacture of a PQ- sulfite concentrate as there are no previous instructions for safe procedure.
For instance, the concentrated sulfite may emit the choking SO2 and HQ solid or vapor may be carcinogenic.
There are easier, safer, powder developers.

The pH is alkali so there's no chance of giving off SO2 and we are talking about Sodium or Potassium Sulphite not Metabisulphite. The level of Hydroquinone isn't an issue I mix concentrated paper developers regularly, and to be more accurate they are actually close to Universal developers, I'd only need to adjust the Bromide and add Benzotriazole.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Nov 11, 2017

darkroommike said:
Kalogen is a MQ version of Rodinal, and Ian Grant has published some concentrated paper developer formulas his approach might work for film developers, too.

Kalogen was marketed commercially by Paul L. Anderson in 1917 and 1918. It was devised as a substitute for Rodinal which which was unavailable during WWI. I came across the formula in the Dignan Newsletter. However the author of the article had the wrong amount of hydroxide. I adjusted the amount and made a few other changes. I posted the formula on APUG but here it is again.

Kalogen

Distilled water (50°C) ……………………………………………… 750 ml
Metol …………………………………………………………………………………………… 12.5 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ………………………………………………… 150 g
Potassium bromide …………………………………………………………… 7.5 g
Benzotriazole, 1% …………………………………………………………… 50.0 ml
Hydroquinone ………………………………………………………………………… 45.0 g
Sodium hydroxide …………………………………………………………… 22.5 g
Distilled water to make …………………………………………… 1.0 l

Dissolve the ingredients in order as given in the formula. A white, fluffy precipitate will form after the addition of the hydroquione. This will dissolve when the sodium hydroxide is added. The developer keeps a very long time. I have a bottle that is over 10 years old and still as good as when made For films I dilute 1+49. This is a universal developer and so for papers I dilute 1+11 and use like Dektol.

removed account4 · Nov 11, 2017

why not just use d72 ? and if you have
some glycin make some ansco 130 it is a similar recipe.
mixed in a concentrate / stock ansco 130 lasts about a year
even longer .. it lasts in an open tray for prints for a month and keeps working
and can double duty prints ( stock, 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 ) and film ( 1:6, 1:8, 1:10 ).
it works great for film as it does for prints, and is easy to mix ...
i used to get 5-6 gallons at the beginning of the year and id be finishing up
the last of the stock solution about 13 months later, no regrets no problems,
just great film ( 35mm - 5x7 ) and great prints.
no photoshops in maine sell sprint?
we have 1 shop left and it sells the small cubes, the 1L slugs and the big cubes ...
if you have a shop, maybe they can order a big cube so youdon't have to deal with shipping...
( the shop we have near us is hunt photo, i think they have a location in maine too, and they inter-store-ship free .. if not
call the mother ship in melrose and ask to talk to gary ... he's happy to help )

nworth · Nov 11, 2017

You can mix up Rodinal of Pyrocat HD, both of which have very long shelf life and work well with modern films. I have not tried Kalogen, but it looks interesting. There is also this:

Hübl paste film developer

Water (54C) 500 ml
Sodium sulfite 165 g
Glycin 135 g

Mix well and add gradually

Potassium carbonate (xtal) 625 g
WTM 1 l

Shake well before use. Dilute 1:12 for turn of the century films. To try for modern films, dilute 1:35 and develop APX 100 for 11 minutes.

I've never tried it, but it also looks iteresting, especially to those who like glycin. It is said to be paste-like, possibly with some ingredients suspended and not fully dissolved. Greater dilutions may be possible.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 12, 2017

nworth said:
You can mix up Rodinal of Pyrocat HD, both of which have very long shelf life and work well with modern films. I have not tried Kalogen, but it looks interesting. There is also this:

Hübl paste film developer

Water (54C) 500 ml
Sodium sulfite 165 g
Glycin 135 g

Mix well and add gradually

Potassium carbonate (xtal) 625 g
WTM 1 l

Shake well before use. Dilute 1:12 for turn of the century films. To try for modern films, dilute 1:35 and develop APX 100 for 11 minutes.

I've never tried it, but it also looks iteresting, especially to those who like glycin. It is said to be paste-like, possibly with some ingredients suspended and not fully dissolved. Greater dilutions may be possible.

Yes, at the concentrations present very little dissolves producing what is more accurately called a slurry.

Gerald C Koch · Nov 12, 2017

I should have added to my post the following development times for Kalogen 1+49, Ilford Pan F Plus 6-3/4 m @20C and FP4 Plus 10-1/2 m @20C.

albada · Nov 12, 2017

I invented a two-part concentrate that produces XTOL-like image-quality. It has kept for 4-1/2 years so far in the freezer, and it still shows no sign of deterioration. It's called Mocon, and here's a link to the article:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/mocon-xtol-quality-in-a-long-lasting-concentrate.219/

Mark Overton

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

Stuart Spigel said:
I am interested in compounding a general purpose film developer for medium and 4x5 formats aiming for maximum shelf life and concentration. There is plenty of info on Rodinal-type developers but wonder just how concentrated you could make a PQ or MQ developer? Basically, I guess, how much of the ingredients, especially sulfite and carbonate you could get into a liter. I am currently using Sprint standard developer and like the 1:9 dilution which makes a gallon cubitainer go a long way, but it costs $68 plus $18 for shipping!!

Thanks.

Well - to me the long live stability of some bw developers you also mentioned has to do with the use of alcohol.
But this can't be stated in general. Some chems. in use to old fashioned bw developers are water unsoluble substances.
On the other hand all water soluble substances can also be fitted with alcohol/water mix.
May be this is ONE key of some others in concern to a couple of possible different developements agents wich you have to find out with personal R&D.
The problem to this intention is the issue
to long time experiments.
This should only make sence with different methods of simulations in regard of artificial "aging" the special soup you are designing.
But on the other hand this is real science.
Bon Chance

trendland · Nov 13, 2017

Oh yes - I forget (from fast reading) to notice what Mark Overton just refered.
To seperate your special 100year soup in different parts (to avoid the most expecting chemical interactions) is an other key to come more in the direction of your methuselah soup.

with regards

aleckurgan · Nov 13, 2017

Alan Johnson said:
For instance, the concentrated sulfite may emit the choking SO2 and HQ solid or vapor may be carcinogenic.

Boiling point for HQ is 287°C, I don't think it makes sense to discuss dangers of HQ vapor with respect to photographic chemistry.

Stuart Spigel · Nov 13, 2017

jnanian said:
why not just use d72 ? and if you have
some glycin make some ansco 130 it is a similar recipe.
mixed in a concentrate / stock ansco 130 lasts about a year
even longer .. it lasts in an open tray for prints for a month and keeps working
and can double duty prints ( stock, 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 ) and film ( 1:6, 1:8, 1:10 ).
it works great for film as it does for prints, and is easy to mix ...
i used to get 5-6 gallons at the beginning of the year and id be finishing up
the last of the stock solution about 13 months later, no regrets no problems,
just great film ( 35mm - 5x7 ) and great prints.
no photoshops in maine sell sprint?
we have 1 shop left and it sells the small cubes, the 1L slugs and the big cubes ...
if you have a shop, maybe they can order a big cube so youdon't have to deal with shipping...
( the shop we have near us is hunt photo, i think they have a location in maine too, and they inter-store-ship free .. if not
call the mother ship in melrose and ask to talk to gary ... he's happy to help )

Gerald C Koch said:
Kalogen was marketed commercially by Paul L. Anderson in 1917 and 1918. It was devised as a substitute for Rodinal which which was unavailable during WWI. I came across the formula in the Dignan Newsletter. However the author of the article had the wrong amount of hydroxide. I adjusted the amount and made a few other changes. I posted the formula on APUG but here it is again.

Kalogen

Distilled water (50°C) ……………………………………………… 750 ml
Metol …………………………………………………………………………………………… 12.5 g
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ………………………………………………… 150 g
Potassium bromide …………………………………………………………… 7.5 g
Benzotriazole, 1% …………………………………………………………… 50.0 ml
Hydroquinone ………………………………………………………………………… 45.0 g
Sodium hydroxide …………………………………………………………… 22.5 g
Distilled water to make …………………………………………… 1.0 l

Dissolve the ingredients in order as given in the formula. A white, fluffy precipitate will form after the addition of the hydroquione. This will dissolve when the sodium hydroxide is added. The developer keeps a very long time. I have a bottle that is over 10 years old and still as good as when made For films I dilute 1+49. This is a universal developer and so for papers I dilute 1+11 and use like Dektol.

Thanks. Your comments are most helpful. I believe there is a Hunts in Portland. I'll check with them.

Stuart Spigel · Nov 13, 2017

nworth said:
You can mix up Rodinal of Pyrocat HD, both of which have very long shelf life and work well with modern films. I have not tried Kalogen, but it looks interesting. There is also this:

Hübl paste film developer

Water (54C) 500 ml
Sodium sulfite 165 g
Glycin 135 g

Mix well and add gradually

Potassium carbonate (xtal) 625 g
WTM 1 l

Shake well before use. Dilute 1:12 for turn of the century films. To try for modern films, dilute 1:35 and develop APX 100 for 11 minutes.

I've never tried it, but it also looks iteresting, especially to those who like glycin. It is said to be paste-like, possibly with some ingredients suspended and not fully dissolved. Greater dilutions may be possible.

Yes, I came upon this formula as well. Discarded it because of the amount and expense of the glycin required.

Photo Engineer · Nov 13, 2017

HQ, being an organic chemical, has a finite vapor pressure at room temperature. Its oxidation product, Quinone, has a very high vapor pressure at room temperature. Unless you are familiar with chemicals and chemistry, you can walk into a very nasty situation. I once opened a drum of HQ that had gone bad and the Q odor was so strong it was dangerous. We had to dump the lot.

Unless you know a bit of chemistry, making something like what is suggested in the OP is very difficult. I have had years of experience, but it took nearly 2 years to come up with Liquidol. This is not an easy road to walk, and many directions or possible paths are out there. Some are impossible, some difficult and some are possible, but being untrained can make all of them difficult or impossible.

PE

timmct · Dec 29, 2017

PE,

This made me remember a time, when I was working for Sprint Systems of Photography, when a chemical company was courting our business; promising lower prices for chemicals. Their "foot in the door" was a cheap delivery for glacial acetic acid. If I recall correctly, this chemistry came out of Quebec; in Canada.

I got a bit into a batch of Stop Bath when I realized that whatever chemical was delivered was not what was promised, and, was reacting with the NaOh to generate acetone (I smelled it). I had to shut down all electrical systems and urge others to vacate the adjacent premises until situations could be rendered "safe".

Good times.

Concentrated developers

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