comstar "piranha" lye

eli griggs · Aug 3, 2006

I'd like to hear from anyone using Piranah Crystal Drain Opener and if it is a good stand-in for Red Devil Lye.

I'd also like to know more about common 'household' chemistry and off-the-shelf darkroom chemicals. I'm putting together my first collection of chemicals and want to have on hand the basics, so I can try my hand at mixing my own chemistry, here in the Eastern US.

Any chat about this stuff is welcome.

Cheers,
Eli

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 3, 2006

Be careful about drain openers, they may contain chemicals that are not compatible with photochemistry in addition to the Lye.

A good place to buy Lye (Sodium or Potassium Hydroxide) is The Chemistry Store: A 2lb pail of Sodium Hydroxide or Potassium Hydroxide is $10.00 (which includes shipping and HAZMAT fees).

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Sodium_Hydroxide.htm

Try to hook up with your local (hobbyist) soap makers to make a large buy and save money.

Here are a few other supermaket items that can be used in photo chemistry:
1.Washing Soda (Sodium Carbonate - Developer Alkali)
2.Borax (Sodium Tetraborate - Developer Alkali)
3.White Vinegar (Stop Bath)
4. Instant Coffee (Developer- Search for caffinol on APUG)
5. Acetaminophen (Developer- Search APUG for paracetaminophenol)
6. Vitamin C (pure ascorbic acid powder (Developer - Search APUG for Vitamin C)

dancqu · Aug 3, 2006

I draw the line at carbonate. Nothing more alkaline
than that. Lye has only a very limited use in a home
darkroom. Without lye you've 10,000 and 1 possibilities;
with, maybe a few hundred more.

I take all my chemistry needs to those specialty
suppliers which keep US in business. I will though make
a small exception and pick up a pint of white vinegar
for some with and without it HT-2 testing. Like
many others I don't use an acid stop. Dan

Jordan · Aug 4, 2006

Just be very careful when you're using lye. You can seriously burn your skin with both the solid material and solutions. It is highly corrosive.

I find it funny that they call this brand of lye "piranha". In chemistry, there is a reagent colloquially called piranha (it's not lye) -- it is a mixture of sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide. A piece of wood or paper immersed into it will often spontaneously burst into fire. Not useful for photochemistry.

htmlguru4242 · Aug 4, 2006

Wow, $10 isn't bad for 2lbs of NaOH. I'd second the reccomendation against drain openers; they contain too much other stuff.

The most fun thing to do with Sodium Hydroxide is to make a solution of it and do isntant development of some resin-coated papers.

srs5694 · Aug 4, 2006

The last I checked, if you want only the sodium hydroxide (or potassium hydroxide), Summer Bee Meadow has a better price than The Chemistry Store. TCS has more chemicals, though, including things like ascorbic acid, sodium sulfite, sodium thiosulfate, and TEA, all of which are useful in mixing your own chemistry. For still more specialized things (phenidone, metol, etc.), you'll need to go to Art Craft, Photographer's Formulary, Digital Truth, or other outfits that specialize in photochemistry. (B&H also sells some photochemistry -- mostly PF's line -- but most of it's "special order" stuff and I doubt if they'd ship lye.)

Gerald Koch · Aug 4, 2006

Here is a list of easily available chemicals for photo use.

Chemical Common Name/Form Source
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acetic acid White vinegar 5% Supermarket
Acetone Building supply
Ascorbic acid Vitamin C crystals Health Food store
Borax Twenty Mule Team Borax Supermarket
Boric acid Drugstore
Citric acid Wine making supply
Formaldehyde Formalin Drugstore
Isopropyl alcohol Isopropyl alcohol 70%, 93% Drugstore
Methyl alcohol Gas drier Automotive supply
Potassium bitartrate Cream of tartar Wine making supply
Potassium carbonate Wine making supply
Potassium metabisulfite Wine making supply
Potassium permanganate Water softener supply
Sodium ascorbate Health Food store
Sodium bicarbonate Baking soda Supermarket
Sodium bisulfate pH Decreaser Pool supply
Sodium bromide Pool supply
Sodium carbonate pH Increaser Pool supply
Arm & Hammer Washing Soda Supermarket
Sodium chloride Pickling salt Supermarket
Sodium hydroxide Red Devil Lye Supermarket
Sodium phosphate tribasic TSP Building supply
Tartaric acid Wine making supply

Gerald Koch · Aug 4, 2006

As far as sodium hydroxide (lye) solutions being dangerous, they can be irritating or cause burns, BUT you have to leave them on the skin for quite some time for this to happen. Frankly, you can get a worse burn from hot water.

The only chemical that I have found bothersome is concentrated hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid, pool acid). This stuff starts to bite rather painfully after only a few seconds contact.

Of course, getting any chemical in the eyes can be really serious. But human skin is amazingly tough.

How do I know? I worked as a research chemist for many years.

eli griggs · Aug 4, 2006

piranha lye info

First of all, I just hung up from Comstar's 800 number and am able to report that their tech told me that "Piranha" is 100% sodium hydroxide, with no metals added; their 'Piranha II" does have metals added. Their MSDS can be downloaded as a .pdf from their site at comstarproducts.com

Secondly, thanks for the feed-back, especially your list Gerald, it's a big help. I find this stuff fascinating and am going to give Donald Quall's Paracetamol "Rodinal" a try this coming week on some Tri-X rated at 200.
Does anybody have a suggestion where to start out the dilution/time?
I had originally thought to use HC-110.

I've already bought Vitamin C (powder) from a health food store, but will go to The Chemistry Store next time as .33 lb ran $15US.
How much of a difference is there in the powder from the crystals and is it useable?

Sodium Carbonate, 100%, in the form of "PH UP" from Home Depot.

Borax, Twenty mule team.

Glycerine, usp from the drug store.

Picking up the rest will be a bit like a scavenge hunt; a little summer fun to defy the heat and humidity.

Any other comments are still welcome; the more I read, the more I enjoy the process of learning something new.

Cheers

jim appleyard · Aug 4, 2006

eli griggs said:
I've already bought Vitamin C (powder) from a health food store, but will go to The Chemistry Store next time as .33 lb ran $15US.

Picking up the rest will be a bit like a scavenge hunt; a little summer fun to defy the heat and humidity.

Cheers

Which Vit. C did you get? There is more than one and not all make good film devs.

I get most chems from:http://www.artcraftchemicals.com

eli griggs · Aug 4, 2006

"Which Vit. C did you get? There is more than one and not all make good film devs."

The answer from the store is Ascorbic Acid.

Cheers

jim appleyard · Aug 4, 2006

IIRC, and others can correct me here, you'll have to raise the ph of the ascorbic acid with baking soda so it works.

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 4, 2006

jim appleyard said:
IIRC, and others can correct me here, you'll have to raise the ph of the ascorbic acid with baking soda so it works.

What most developer recipes do is convert the ascorbic acid to a salt (an ascorbate) this can be accomplished in many different ways; with sodium or potassium carbonate, bicarbonate, etc. or with Triethanolamine (TEA).

eli griggs · Aug 4, 2006

Tom Hoskinson said:
What most developer recipes do is convert the ascorbic acid to a salt (an ascorbate) this can be accomplished in many different ways; with sodium or potassium carbonate, bicarbonate, etc. or with Triethanolamine (TEA).

So what method(s) do you recommend and how shall I proceed?

What items for testing should my home lab include?

I have a good reloading scale and have planed for ph strips.

Cheers

srs5694 · Aug 5, 2006

eli griggs said:
So what method(s) do you recommend and how shall I proceed?

If you're following recipes out of a book or found on the Internet, just follow them if you've got the appropriate ingredients. If the recipe calls for ascorbic acid, whoever developed the recipe has already balanced it appropriately (maybe just in a "seat of the pants" sort of way, or maybe more scientifically). If you've got ascorbic acid but the recipe calls for sodium ascorbate, you can mix 2.1g of ascorbic acid with 1g baking soda in a bit of water to get the equivalent of 2.36g sodium ascorbate in water. (Scale up or down as necessary for your formula.) The mixture will fizz; wait for that to subside before using the mixture.

Jordan · Aug 6, 2006

The "real" Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. You have to be careful in health food stores, though, where a variety of related forms are sold. The one I most commonly see is "Ester-C" or "buffered Vitamin C" -- these are usually calcium ascorbate, which is problematic in developers (calcium salts will form precipitates in alkaline solutions). Pat Gainer has been using isoascorbic acid, which is a partial mirror-image isomer of Vitamin C that works just fine for photographic purposes. I don't quite remember where he bought it.

eli griggs · Aug 6, 2006

Picked up a few more items on Gerald's list and I'd like to know, can 91% alcohol be used in place of the 93% stuff? I bought Walgreens' brand and some of their house brand 500 mg acetamininophen, packaged two for one in 100 count bottles, for about $8US.

On another front, does anyone have any first hand experience with the pool chemicals (brands) stocked by Home Depot, Wal-Mart and Lowes here in North Carolina? I'm looking for a proven 'fixer' etc. and if I can pick it up a a home center or the Wal-Mart, it would be helpful.

Cheers

Gerald Koch · Aug 7, 2006

eli griggs said:
Picked up a few more items on Gerald's list and I'd like to know, can 91% alcohol be used in place of the 93% stuff?

My post has a misprint and it really should be 91% alcohol which is available from drugstores.

eli griggs · Aug 7, 2006

Thanks for clearing that up Gerald.

On boric acid, I often see it as a bug killer; will a pesticide product work or is there a particular grade/brand to look out for?

Cheers

Gerald Koch · Aug 7, 2006

The boric acid used as a roach killer is a very fine powder. Powdered boric acid is hard to dissolve in water as the water tends not to wet it and the powder just floats on the surface. It will, however, dissolve in hot water. Therefore, it is better to buy boric acid crystals. Both the powdered and crystalline forms are available in most drugstores.

srs5694 · Aug 7, 2006

Concerning pool chemicals as fixer, presumably you're looking for an inexpensive source of sodium thiosulfate. I've heard that this is sometimes sold by pool-supply outfits, but I don't ever recall seeing it on the shelves in Lowes, Wal-Mart, Target, or the like. I did once spot a very small bottle in a dedicated pool supply place, but the price was very high on a per-gram basis. Lloyd Erlick has a Web page that details his experiences finding low-cost sodium sulfite and sodium thiosulfate locally. I've not done a really serious search for local sources for these chemicals myself. Based on the prices from mail-order outfits (including shipping), my conclusion is that it's not cost-effective to mix your own fixers based on sodium thiosulfate. This conclusion might change if I dug up a good local source for sodium thiosulfate, though; about half the cost of mail-order sodium thiosulfate is for shipping!

For inexpensive fixer, check out C-41 fixer (like Kodak's Flexicolor fixer) or Photographer's Formulary's TF4. Both cost about $0.02 per roll of film, compared to about $0.08/roll for a typical mix-it-yourself sodium thiosulfate fixer using mail-order sodium thiosulfate. The C-41 fixer and TF4 are both based on ammonium thiosulfate, and these fixers work faster than do sodium thiosulfate fixers, too.

eli griggs · Aug 7, 2006

Yes, I'm going to give pool chemistry a try for fixer, if I can find the right stuff. I'd like to see just how far I can go on dual use products.

Gerald, thanks for the info on boric acid; I'll look for the crystals.

Let me ask about ammonia; I thought I saw this in an online formula, at 28%. Can household 'white' ammonia be used?

Cheers

Zathras · Aug 8, 2006

Source for Ascorbic Acid

For those of you who can get to a Trader Joe's, they sell 100% Ascorbic Acid powder for $9.99 per pound in the vitamin section.

Mike Sullivan

Tom Hoskinson · Aug 8, 2006

Zathras said:
For those of you who can get to a Trader Joe's, they sell 100% Ascorbic Acid powder for $9.99 per pound in the vitamin section.

Mike Sullivan

Yes, and it is pure L-Ascorbic Acid. I've been using it in developer recipes for years.

Gerald Koch · Aug 8, 2006

When a formula calls for sodium ascorbate or sodium erythorbate I use sodium erythorbate from Suttons Bay Trading Company http://www.suttonsbayspices.com/ under sausage supplies for $6.33 per pound. This avoids the bother of having to neutralize ascorbic acid. This is great when you are mixing up your own Xtol.

comstar "piranha" lye

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