Compur Shutter info

[Jonathan-sv]

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In my random purchase of things that look like 9x12 plate holders, I managed to obtains this plate camera (along with some plate holders and a Rollex back for 120 film) but it doesn't seem to have any markings as to the manufacturer. I know that these were made and then labelled later by the seller, so I'm not so worried about at this point. The problem is that the shutter seems to be stuck at a high speed, maybe 1/200 or 1/100 judging by the sound. I took the front cover off but I'm not sure it was assembled right by someone else, or if there is something broken or missing. The dial for setting the shutter speed doesn't seem to do anything. The Z and B settings work as they should, so I could always just use long exposures.

I have seen links to some kind of manual or diagram for these dial-set Compur shutters, but the links are old enough that the site referred doesn't exist. Does anyone have these or an updated link?

Theoretically I guess I could take apart the shutter of my Voigtländer Bergheil but I'd rather not do that at this point since it actually works (except the slow speeds are a bit sticky).

Jonathan

 

[FotoD]

Remove the screw on the speed dial. Lift off the dial (and screw + washer). Make a note (or photo) of the way the parts below sit together.

There should be a cam (an asymetrically shaped round plate) that pushes a pin sticking up from below when you turn the dial. The shutter speed varies with the position of this pin.

What can happen is that the pin falls below the cam, then nothing happens when you turn the dial. One shutter speed only.

If you are lucky this is what happened. If not you'll have to dig deeper. The three small screws on the cocking lever, the screw on the ZDM-wheel and the two screws on the lower part of the shutter front will get you there.

Good luck!

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Anleitung - Reinigung von Compur-Verschlüssen - Grossformatfotografie

Hallo, ich möchte hier mal schreiben, wie man den "Dial-Set Compur" (der alte schwarze mit dem Zeitenrad oben) öffnet und reinigt. Meistens hängen ja nur die Langzeiten, wenn nichts defekt ist. Habe schon einige Dial-Set geöffnet und wieder gängig…

forum.grossformatfotografie.de

 

[albada]

That camera looks brand new. It looks like you time-traveled to a camera store in the year 1911, bought it, and time-traveled back before the seller could notice that you paid him with money from the future.
It should be fun to shoot with it. Congratulations.

 

[JPD]

That camera looks brand new. It looks like you time-traveled to a camera store in the year 1911, bought it, and time-traveled back before the seller could notice that you paid him with money from the future.
It should be fun to shoot with it. Congratulations.

Agreed, but 1911 is too early. The Eurynar at that time was a double-gauss lens. This dialyt version came a couple of years later, so the camera is probably from around 1920.

 

[Manual Camera]

From about 1918 according the lens serial number 179481

 

[JPD]

Willy Frerk had good things to say about the Eurynar in his book Lichtbildkunde Band 1. from 1927:

I think he must be referring to the earlier double-gauss type when he writes that the 18 cm Eurynar will cover 13x18 fully open.

 

[Jonathan-sv]

I'm still studying the pictures and text at grossformatfotographie, but that was a lot of good information. I was able to look at the shutter speed dial again (I had it off once before) and I can see now that the pin that is moved by the cam to actually adjust the speeds is stuck, and it doesn't move even when I push on it with a screwdriver. I guess I have to dig deeper.

 

[JPD]

Remember that the aperture blades are made of treated paper, so don't get them wet with any fluids.

 

[FotoD]

This is what to expect when you open it.

You don't need to remove the center screw under the cocking lever. It just keeps the spring in place. If you replace the lever while the shutter is open, you can operate it and hopefully see where the problem is.

Good luck!

 

[Jonathan-sv]

I opened it up and it does look like that figure. I used some 'hand disinfectant' we had lying around (mostly ethanol but it did have some 'propan-2-ol' in it which I think is isopropyl alcohol) and moved some of the levers and gears around. I managed to get the pin that actually adjusts the shutter speeds (above the letter 'g' in Anastigmat) to move up and down. The front elements have to come off to remove the cover plate but I put it back on to keep stuff from falling inside the lens.

I put it back together and at least the higher speeds 'sound' right, but the slow ones still don't work OK which I understand is a common problem. Dealing with that is the next step. But I need (want??) to try this out with some film, which I don't have in 9x12 right now (though I do have some plate holders and 1 film sheath) so I guess I'll make a 4x5 back for it as well. Probably only need one piece 3D printed, and I can use the other parts from the adapter I made for the Bergheil.

 

[JPD]

Have you tried it with film yet?

Ethanol and Isopropanol don't dissolve oil and grease that well, and hand disinfectants often contain other things that you might not want in a shutter, plus some water.

I have a Compur shutter like that now, but in a smaller size, with the same problem. The longer speeds don't work, and the shutter release lever is slow to return, so it's probably dried lubricants. I have Naptha (kemiskt ren bensin) that I'm going to use in very small amounts (tiny drop, let it work, then suck it up with a q-tip, and then repeat). I don't want any to get on the delicate paper iris blades. The lens is a Goerz Dogmar 6,3/10cm, which is similar to the Eurynar.

 

[Kino]

I'm still studying the pictures and text at grossformatfotographie, but that was a lot of good information. I was able to look at the shutter speed dial again (I had it off once before) and I can see now that the pin that is moved by the cam to actually adjust the speeds is stuck, and it doesn't move even when I push on it with a screwdriver. I guess I have to dig deeper.

That picture is a great illustration of why you only turn those shutter speed dials anti-clockwise. Thanks for posting it!

 

[JPD]

In my case it was the lever that engages the retard gear train that refused to move properly when setting the speed. I removed the screw and put a drop of naphta on the pivot and let it sit for a few seconds and removed it with a q-tip. I repeated that a couple of times and then a tiny drop of light oil. I didn't want to remove the lever because it had a tiny spring that could cause a headache. Another problem was that if the screw was too tight the lever wouldn't move smoothly. Now the longer speeds work fine. I also cleaned the shutter release lever pivot and it moves like it should now.

 

[Jonathan-sv]

I'm going to have to find the time to try this. The Heliar in the Bergheil definitely gives the look of an uncoated lens, and I'm sure the Eurynar will behave the same way.

I'm also having trouble with the classified ads section. I can't seem to respond to an ad but I can't find info on how to change that.

Jonathan

 

[Romanko]

The camera is made by Ihagee in the 1920s:

Rodenstock serial numbers - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

The manufacturer's name is embossed on the focusing screen cover.
I have one exactly like yours, also in very good condition. I bought it from Sweden.
Slow speeds are sluggish (apparently these Compurs require servicing at least every 50 - 60 years).

You can get Fomapan 100 in 9x12 cm format at a reasonable price in Europe:

FOMAPAN 100 9x12 CM/50 KS | FOMAPAN 100 /sheets/ |FOMA BOHEMIA e-shop

black and white negative sheet film, sensitivity ISO 100/21°

fomaobchod.cz

Thanks for posting and good luck with the repairs!

 

[MattKing]

I'm also having trouble with the classified ads section. I can't seem to respond to an ad but I can't find info on how to change that.

Your post count is under 20, so you are still being affected by some of our anti-spamming restrictions that are designed to frustrate the "drop-in" scammers.
I'll draw your situation to the attention of Sean, the site's owner and administrator.

 

[Jonathan-sv]

Your post count is under 20, so you are still being affected by some of our anti-spamming restrictions that are designed to frustrate the "drop-in" scammers.
I'll draw your situation to the attention of Sean, the site's owner and administrator.

I guess I could make a lot of silly posts but that seems like a bother for everyone else.

The camera is made by Ihagee in the 1920s:

Rodenstock serial numbers - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

The manufacturer's name is embossed on the focusing screen cover.
I have one exactly like yours, also in very good condition. I bought it from Sweden.
Slow speeds are sluggish (apparently these Compurs require servicing at least every 50 - 60 years).

You can get Fomapan 100 in 9x12 cm format at a reasonable price in Europe:

FOMAPAN 100 9x12 CM/50 KS | FOMAPAN 100 /sheets/ |FOMA BOHEMIA e-shop

black and white negative sheet film, sensitivity ISO 100/21°

fomaobchod.cz

Thanks for posting and good luck with the repairs!

I was guessing that it was an Ihagee but there is no text embossed on the focusing screen cover. It's just blank. I have some 9x12 plate holders that fit, and even 3 film sheaths, but this is basically a bonus camera, since I already have a Bergheil with a Heliar lens. Still, I'll probably run some film through it, though probably via a 4x5 adapter, since I would only have to have 1 part printed, and I could borrow everything from the 4x5 adapter I made for the Bergheil. I have some pretty weird plate holders now, even some 10 x 15 with reducing sheaths for 9x12 plates, something I'd never seen before. And some 9x14.

 

[MattKing]

I guess I could make a lot of silly posts but that seems like a bother for everyone else.

I'll suggest patience - Sean is on New Zealand time, but he usually gets to these requests reasonably promptly.
And as a moderator, let me share my appreciation for everyone who seeks to avoid making "silly" posts!

 

[Romanko]

the 4x5 adapter I made for the Bergheil

Is it similar to Feather-Lite adapting back made by Fidelity? Do you have to adjust the focusing scale/infinity stop on your Bergheil to use the adapter?

 

[Jonathan-sv]

Is it similar to Feather-Lite adapting back made by Fidelity? Do you have to adjust the focusing scale/infinity stop on your Bergheil to use the adapter?

Not sure what the Feather-Lite back looks, like but this one I 3-d printed, starting from some files for an Avus. The piece that slid into the Bergheil had to be re-designed, but I did that in FreeCad. The files are on thingiverse, just search there for Avus and you can see pictures (including mine) and even download the files. I think the title is 'International back for Voigtländer 9x12', and there are 2 remixes (where the design is changed) and mine is the one for a Bergheil. This might be another thread I've had here in plate cameras.

It was technically a 9x12 back, but since I had to move the focus plane back a bit, it covers almost all of a 4x5 negative. Of course the infinity stop is no longer correct, but I usually check the ground glass anyway. I tried guessing for a couple of shots with so-so results, so maybe I should put a piece of tape there and make some marks.

I initially printed all the pieces, and the one that slides into the camera (called the adapter plate) designed the Avus one didn't fit the Bergheil, but it will probably (with a bit of sanding) go into the no-name camera with the Eurynar. I just need to print the cassette holder and then I can swap the other pieces from the back for the Bergheil and test the lens and shutter.

I'm pretty much set up for 4x5 for sheet film (I also have a Kodak 2-D 5x7 with a reducing back and a Graphic View), a Stearman Press tank, and my Epson scanner has a frame that holds 4x5 negatives. I have thought about 9x12 film, but then I need to figure out a developing system and scanning the negs, so that part is sort of on hold. I admit that the 4x5 adapter is a bit clunky looking and the distance scale is not useable, but I haven't found plate holders that fit properly, though I have some that would work if I made the edge a bit thicker, maybe with a strip of wood or something. The 9x14 holders also go into the Bergheil, but I would need to add an extra light-trap strip and something to hold the film sheaths.

Alternative is a Rollex back but it won't cover the whole field.

 

[JPD]

but this is basically a bonus camera, since I already have a Bergheil with a Heliar lens.

The Heliar and Eurynar have different characteristics, so maybe you will find that they complement eachother. The Eurynar should be sharper than the Heliar while the Heliar has a more pleasing transition from focus and out of focus.

 

[Jonathan-sv]

As it turned out, it was a different part of the shutter that was binding and prevented the slow speeds from working. I opened the shutter and tried the trick suggested by JPD, though I was using Primus Power Fuel as my solvent because it was in the house and it supposedly leaves no residue when it burns, and I presume it evaporates before it burns. Pretty much the 'white gas' or Coleman Stove Fuel in the US.

Unfortunately unscrewing the screw he had marked and cleaning and oiling didn't help. What did help was doing the same thing to the screw I marked in the picture below. The shutter in Bergheil had the same problem, and when I had the cover off and the cocking lever re-mounted, I could see that the lever (with the round end) moved back and forth erratically when the shutter fired on slow speeds. I realized that the saw-tooth shaped disc under the lever is an escapement wheel, just like in a clock or watch, and the lever with the circle fills the same function as a pendulum in a clock. I removed that screw, applied some solvent with a q-tip and then removed it (several times) and then added a small amount (microscopic drops) of oil with a toothpick. Now the shutter seemed to work on the slow speeds, so I re-assembled that one (the one on the Bergheil) and repeated it on the shutter with the Eurynar. This was also met with success, so now both shutters are working even at slow speeds. I should measure them to see how far off they are (I've heard you can do it with audacity), but I'm quite pleased with how they sound. There is a pleasant 'whirring' noise when I cock the shutter and it is set for a slower speed, and you get another whirring noise when between the shutter opening and closing, which is the escapement and the 'pendulum thing' (it's not really a pendulum) doing their job to measure the time between opening and closing.

Just need to get some film into this camera to see how it performs.

 

[JPD]

That's great news, and the sound of a shutter when you get it to run smoothly is pleasant indeed!

 

[Jonathan-sv]

Audacity analysis shows it's pretty close.