Composing w/ Horseman Convertible

wjlapier · May 14, 2019

The Horseman Convertible has a wireframe and metal flip around viewfinder but I'm not sure I understand how to use these two to compose photos with them. Anyone care to offer their experience with the camera and the included viewfinders?

I have a Ricoh 28mm finder I thought about using--I've only shot one roll through the camera with the wireframe and wasn't even sure I was using it right. I'd prefer to use the wireframe and keep the camera's lines clean and simple.

Also, the camera came with a 6x9 back but the wireframe looks more like 6x7 to me. I also have a Horseman 6x7/220 film back. The rear foldup finder looks close to 6x9 but looking through one or the other or both is confusing to me, considering the 62mm lens is supposed to be close to ~28mm for 6x9 and ~35mm for 6x7 ( so I've read on the internet ).

TheMissingLink · May 15, 2019

Nice toy and seen for the first time.

If you are too confused about your viewfinder there is a cheap optical one at the bay:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Viewfinder-...284296?hash=item2aa646cd08:g:se4AAOSwe7BWxNAM

Dan Daniel · May 15, 2019

You can remove the film insert from the Horseman back and put some ground glass or such on the film rails. Open the lens to B and you'll be able to do a rough comparison to what the viewfinder shows and what the film is actually going to show. A few fuzzy dark samplings might be enough to get you some confidence. Over time I find framing because second nature with enough rolls shot with a particualar lens/camera combo. Precise framing is overrated except for technical view camera work and closeups.

wjlapier · May 15, 2019

TheMissingLink said:
Nice toy and seen for the first time.

If you are too confused about your viewfinder there is a cheap optical one at the bay:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/Viewfinder-...284296?hash=item2aa646cd08:g:se4AAOSwe7BWxNAM

Thank you for the suggestion but I have an optical viewfinder already and would prefer to understand the purpose of the wireframe and the fold out finders. The one problem with the Ricoh and others like them is they sit on top of the camera body and the film back sticks out so you can't get your eye close to see the frame lines.

wjlapier · May 15, 2019

Dan Daniel said:
You can remove the film insert from the Horseman back and put some ground glass or such on the film rails. Open the lens to B and you'll be able to do a rough comparison to what the viewfinder shows and what the film is actually going to show. A few fuzzy dark samplings might be enough to get you some confidence. Over time I find framing because second nature with enough rolls shot with a particualar lens/camera combo. Precise framing is overrated except for technical view camera work and closeups.

Yep--might be expecting too much precise framing.

I think the camera is really a 6x7 but "convertible" to 6x9.

choiliefan · May 15, 2019

A little googling shows a camera with the rear of the frame finder turned 90 degrees and possibly telescoped out to clear the film back.
Is your finder different than this one?
https://www.johanniels.com/en/mediu...convertible-a-medium-format-wide-angle-camera

wjlapier · May 15, 2019

choiliefan said:
A little googling shows a camera with the rear of the frame finder turned 90 degrees and possibly telescoped out to clear the film back.
Is your finder different than this one?
https://www.johanniels.com/en/mediu...convertible-a-medium-format-wide-angle-camera

Same camera and finder. Look at the rear one and tell me if that looks more like 6x9 than 6x7, and does the wire frame look like 6x7? Minor nit picking I know, but I wonder about this stuff regarding this camera since there is no manual and no real instructions on how to use the finders.

choiliefan · May 15, 2019

Rear looks square or perhaps 6X7 to me...
Wire front looks square as in 6X6.

John Koehrer · May 15, 2019

6X7 to me.
The frame in pic #1 is 6X9. My only guess would be that the rear frame isn't meant to be held close to
the eye and you would only use the horizontal portion of the frame. The entire system was meant to be a sports finder deal not for accurate framing.

Dan Daniel · May 15, 2019

Any chance the wire frame is meant to be adjusted for different proportions? If the bottom came up a bit and the top was dropped a touch, it would be closer to 6x9 in proportion.

If you need precision framing, you will probably be better served by another camera. The Horseman VH with ground glass framing is a nice camera, although somewhat limited with wide angle lenses.

wjlapier · May 15, 2019

For this camera I'm fine with the way it is. I was just wondering if anyone knew exactly how to use the finders. No precise framing needed.

iseolake · Jun 2, 2019

I have the Convertible Horseman manual, but it’s in Japanese, and very terse.

Here are three points about the finder mentioned in the manual.

- the finder is designed for 6x7. It says if you want to imagine 6x9, then consider the frame to be about 1cm more to the left and right.
- the specs part of the manual then says that the finder shows 85% of the 6x7 view (more imagining required)
- the wire frame has two detent positions — all the way up is normal (the black bar is pulled up above it’s closed position) — most of the way up (black bar in its closed position but wire frame pulled up) is for parallax correction when the subject is 2 m or closer.

I have two ground glass backs for this camera. One proper one made for the Convertible Horseman and a Wista, that kind of fits in. The Wista has two and bottom lugs, but is missing the slots for the Graflock-like tabs. I’m going to cut those slots in some day, because the Wista has a fresnel and a hood to block light. Not that I have used ground glass focusing/composition very much at all with this camera. I bought an old Mamiya Press 65mm optical finder. And I have also mounted my iPhone on top and used a viewfinder app to view the scene that way. The advantage of this is that you also get metering. The disadvantage is the native iPhone X lens doesn't get as wide as 62mm on 6x9. I need to add an accessory lens.

By the way, for 6x9, they recommend stopping down the lens to at least f11. You’ll notice the “6x9” and f stops 11 and above are printed in orange.

Enjoy.

Tom

wjlapier · Jun 3, 2019

Thank you very much for the translation and info.

Kodachromeguy · Jun 4, 2019

We're there other interchangeable back cameras of this type? I vaguely recall Cambo wide angle cameras from Calumet's catalogs. Thanks!

foveon_m · Jun 4, 2019

Focus by estimating?

wjlapier · Jun 5, 2019

Focus by estimating yes. I've shot the camera and images are sharp at f/16--might try f/22 next time. My question was about how to use the wire frames to compose but that looks to not be an issue now.

foveon_m · Jun 5, 2019

sorry for hijacking, been just curious^^

Dan Daniel · Jun 5, 2019

Kodachromeguy said:
We're there other interchangeable back cameras of this type? I vaguely recall Cambo wide angle cameras from Calumet's catalogs. Thanks!

You can make your own. This is a 47mm Acugon mounted to the focusing helical from a Pentax 50mm lens with an ABS plastic box. The rollfilm back attaches to what was the back of a B&J press camera. It wouldn't be hard to make a Graflok or such back. Guesstimating focus after making marks in the helical travel based on a ground glass at the image plane. I have a junky little 21mm (35mm equiv) finder but have found after a couple of rolls that just guessing the framing works well. I use it for street fun.

wjlapier · Jun 5, 2019

Hacked Mamiya Universal type cameras but not as compact--and they don't take the Horseman backs either.

iseolake · Jun 7, 2019

Check out MercuryCamera.com, a 3D printed modular system that is built around the Graflok back and a modular lens mount system that accepts view lenses, MamiyaPress lenses, other system lenses with adapters. They recommend old-fashioned type accessory rangefinders to read distance and set focus. Or fround glass. These would work with the Convertible Horseman, as well, of course.

Composing w/ Horseman Convertible

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