Commercial Devs. vs. Custom Chemistry

Ryuji · Sep 20, 2005

jdef said:
I think you're discounting the importance of a "special feeling".

Yes, probably I am. But I have tons of it elsewhere though.

But my response was shaped for the original questioner as a practical advice. I didn't mean to send YOU an anti-special message.

Ryuji · Sep 20, 2005

jdef said:
Ryuji,

I hope I didn't come off as confrontational, I assure you my comments were made with the lightest of hearts. I appreciate your experience and expertise very much.

Jay

No problem.

gnashings · Sep 20, 2005

Well, this is the problem - photography is so many different things to so many of us - hobby, profession, obsession - various degrees of any or all of those things, etc.
But as someone who uses off the shelf chemicals I can assure you - the results are there for those who want to learn (still doing that last part) - but I also know that right now, just setting up to develop film is a bit of a pain in my current situation. However... the whole alchemy/mad scinece part of it is definitely big for me, so as soon as I have more permanent digs, I will be mixing my own. Why? The same reason I make my own prints and soup my own film - I love making as much of this happen with my own two hands as I can. Some of you may ask "Why don't you build your own cameras too, smart ass?" - and I know many of you do that as well. And the answer is this: in the interest of sanity. I draw lines - I have to. And I still think that I won't be able to resist the urge to build my own camera some day. I think I will be happiest if one day, I can hold up a print on a iece of paper I coated with home made emulsion, from film shot through a hand-built camera of my own "design" on film I developed in chemistry I made up. It will probably be a very muddy, horrible image lacking in many ways... but I can tell you this: it will probably be my most prized photograph (aside from ones that are priceless due to capturing a person or moment in time that is dear as life itself).

Sorry about the spiel... just got to ramblin'

Cheers,

Peter.

MikeS · Sep 20, 2005

On the original question of mix your own chemicals vs prepackaged formulas I'm surprised nobody mentioned one very important reason to mix your own (or if they did I might have missed it):

When you mix your own developer you know what's in it. When you use a factory developer (like Dektol, Acufine, etc.) the manufacturer can (and does) change the formula from time to time. Since it's introduction, HC-110 has gone thru a few formula changes, and Acufine has gone thru at least one that I know of. Dektol is listed as an improved version of D-72 (or is it D-52 I always get those 2 confused), but what is actually IN Dektol? Only Kodak knows, and they ain't telling! When you mix up D-72 from it's formula, you know what it is, and when you mix it up 5 years from now, it will be the same developer you used 5 years ago.

Having said that, I use both home mixed developers, as well as commercially packaged ones. One home-brew I particularly like is PC-TEA, which isn't available commercially at all!

-Mike

Ole · Sep 20, 2005

srs5694 said:
As you're in Norway and I'm in the US, I'm sure you use different suppliers than I do. I haven't found those at general-purpose chemistry suppliers -- at least, not those that sell in quantities of a few dozen or hundred grams to end users.

I buy my chemicals from VWR - an international company.

srs5694 · Sep 20, 2005

Photo Engineer said:
Try here:

http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=9&CategoryID=18&langID=0

Thanks for the reference, PE and others who provided same; but I already had them, and have bought from most of the suppliers mentioned. I wasn't asking where to buy these chemicals, but what they're used for, outside of photography.

Photo Engineer · Sep 20, 2005

srs5694 said:
Thanks for the reference, PE and others who provided same; but I already had them, and have bought from most of the suppliers mentioned. I wasn't asking where to buy these chemicals, but what they're used for, outside of photography.

Wow! That is like asking what a vehicle can be used for. There are trucks, bicycles, trains etc. All have different uses. Chemicals are quite versatile and can be used anywhere.

Sulfites are used as preservatives in wine and food in buffet lines, but some people are allergic to them, so you have to be careful.

Paraphenylene diamines are used in hair dyes. Again, allergy is a problem for some.

Carbonates are used to adjust pool pH. Bicarbonates are used in cooking and for stomach upset.

Chlorides are used in food and water softeners.

Bromides are used in medicines.

Sulfuric acid is used in car batteries as one of thousands of uses.

Hydrochloric acid is used in cleaning metal parts and masonry among thousands of uses.

Silver used to be a very versatile antiseptic.

The list is practically endless. The best source for this information is the Merck Index. It gives the uses for thousands of chemicals.

PE

Gerald Koch · Sep 20, 2005

For those that are interested, here are some sites that I use for chemicals. All are very reasonable.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/
Sells such chemicals as sodium sulfite, sodium carbonate, potassium hydroxide, various glycols, triethanolamine, citric acid, sodium thiosulfate, Calgon, Quadrofos (Kodak Anticalcium #1) ...

http://www.techcheminc.com/index.htm
Various developing agents (Metol, hydroquinone, Phenidone, Dimezone), other photo chemicals such as potassium bromide, sodium sulfide, thiourea, ...

http://www.thewinelab.com/
Source for potassium metabisulfite, tartaric acid, potassium carbonate. Look under Cellar Chemicals

http://www.suttonsbayspices.com/
Cheapest source for sodium erythorbate that I have found, $6.33 for 1 lb. Look for under sausage supplies.

Ryuji · Sep 20, 2005

I have received a few questions about further details of synthesis of amidol and glycin. However, my intention of the previous post on this matter was to let you guys relax and stop worrying about these chemicals, because industrial chemists can easily look up these on their usual references. I didn't mean to recommend amateur chemists follow that direction. If you are set up to boil harsh, smelly chemicals and pour in another chemical while stirring, and let them cook for some time, and then cool down to crystalize and purify, etc., and all of these safely, you probably have access to one of subscription based chemical databases. Don't risk your health by trying to save few bucks...

MikeS · Sep 20, 2005

Ryuji said:
If you are set up to boil harsh, smelly chemicals and pour in another chemical while stirring, and let them cook for some time, and then cool down to crystalize and purify, ...

And you might not want to do these things if you live in a high crime area, otherwise local law enforcement might mistake your mad chemistry for a meth lab!

-Mike

Photo Engineer · Sep 20, 2005

I second what Ryuji says about doing organic syntheses in the home. You really need a well equipped lab to do it right, you risk your health and safety, and you risk a 'raid'.

MikeS, Dektol is D72 (or D52 - I can never remember which one it is either and I'm too lazy to go to my index of formulas). You guys should remember that a published formula is almost exactly what the plant formula is, with just a few exceptions.

1. Sequestrants are added to 'average out' water supply differences.

2. Plant methodolgy for packaging requires that the developing agents be protected to prevent aerial oxidation. This sometimes involves coating with a barrier layer to prevent oxidation, but which dissolves harmlessly in water.

These two differences don't affect the final product in terms of speed / fog / image structure and etc. This would be bad for business if the published and packaged formulas differed greatly.

When a formula is re-engineered such as HC110, it is firstly only done in a major way if the formula is unpublished in open sources, and secondly it is done so that a property not observed directly in the result is affected. For example, keeping might improve but curve / tone / image structure / speed etc cannot change. So, there might be a minor change in an ingredient such as the amount of PEG or TEA or some such, perhaps sulfite, and etc, but the effect would remain 'hidden' to the average user. Another change might involve just order of mixing in the plant, a new source for a chemical, or a less expensive chemical such as going to NaBr from KBr to reduce cost.

PE

dancqu · Sep 20, 2005

jdef said:
Pat Gainer uses a similar procedure, adding ammonium
thiosulfate directly to the developer at the end of the
developing period.

Yah but not very dilute. IIRC he has said he uses A.
Thio. at paper strength, 1:9, one-shot. I use it at 1:24.
That is 20ml in a volume of 500ml. Dan

srs5694 · Sep 20, 2005

Photo Engineer said:
srs5694 said:

Thanks for the reference, PE and others who provided same; but I already had them, and have bought from most of the suppliers mentioned. I wasn't asking where to buy these chemicals, but what they're used for, outside of photography.

Click to expand...

Wow! That is like asking what a vehicle can be used for. There are trucks, bicycles, trains etc. All have different uses. Chemicals are quite versatile and can be used anywhere.

Once again my question has been misinterpreted. I wasn't asking about chemicals generically; "these" in "these chemicals" refers to the ones that I'd mentioned much earlier in the thread as being obtainable from photochemical suppliers but not other chemical suppliers (at least, not those who tend to deal with the general public) -- things like phenidone, metol, pyrocatechol, and so on.

I think this thread has splintered off in enough directions that the context of individual topics under discussion has been completely lost, hence the confusion.

Bruce Osgood · Sep 20, 2005

srs5694 said:
I think this thread has splintered off in enough directions that the context of individual topics under discussion has been completely lost, hence the confusion.

Welcome to the APUG Forums, where everybody has an answer regardless of the question.

Photo Engineer · Sep 20, 2005

srs5694 said:
Once again my question has been misinterpreted. I wasn't asking about chemicals generically; "these" in "these chemicals" refers to the ones that I'd mentioned much earlier in the thread as being obtainable from photochemical suppliers but not other chemical suppliers (at least, not those who tend to deal with the general public) -- things like phenidone, metol, pyrocatechol, and so on.

I think this thread has splintered off in enough directions that the context of individual topics under discussion has been completely lost, hence the confusion.

You made yourself clear actually. I knew you were referring to photographic chemicals, but I didn't make myself clear. Sorry.

There are so many uses for the simple photgraphic chemicals you mention that it boggles the mind.

Pyrocatechol for example lists dyeing fur, developer in photography, reagent (reactant for chemical work) and as an antiseptic for cats.

Pyrogallol is used for making colloidal metals, in photography, as a mordant, leather stain, engraving chemical, for making dyes, fur dye, hair dye, as a reagent to test for antimony and bismuth, as a reducing agent for gold, silver and mercury and for absorbing oxygen in gas analysis. It is also used as an antipsoriatic in cats. (those darn cats - maybe they like photographic chemicals)

Hydroquinone, as a developer in photography, a reagent for phosphate analysis, and as a depigmentor in cats (aaaaa. There they are again)

Phenidone is used as an anticoagulant in cats.... (geez they won't let up here)

I listed some other no-brainer common chemicals in my last post.

The list of photo chemcials and their use- non-use around the world in industry and in homes is quite huge, and I was not digressing from fact in that last post.

Well, you see my point I think, that photographic chemicals are used universally except for a very few that have no use outside photography.

So, we will be able to buy them at most chemical supply houses as they have universal application. OTOH, it is becoming increasingly difficult for private citizens to buy chemicals, due to the terrorist acts carried out globally, and the uses these chemicals often have in illegal drug synthesis. In addition, as EPA rules become tighter, we are limited in what we can use or dispose of.

Therefore, I cannot buy a lot of things I want to use for emulsion making. They are restricted for one reason or another. Some rather common chemcials are just out of reach for these and other reasons. Wards will no longer sell chemicals to private individuals at all.

What might we lose or what is already hard to get? Dimezone, Dimezone S, Amidol, Glycin, CD-6, etc.. and what have we lost already, chloro Hydroquinone comes to mind.

I hope this helped a bit.

PE

srs5694 · Sep 21, 2005

Photo Engineer said:
You made yourself clear actually. I knew you were referring to photographic chemicals, but I didn't make myself clear. Sorry.

OK. Your earlier reply only mentioned the carbonates, sulfates, etc., which I hadn't asked about, so I assumed you misinterpreted my question. Thanks for the brief summary of uses for some of the rarer photographic chemicals.

So, we will be able to buy them at most chemical supply houses as they have universal application. OTOH, it is becoming increasingly difficult for private citizens to buy chemicals, due to the terrorist acts carried out globally, and the uses these chemicals often have in illegal drug synthesis. In addition, as EPA rules become tighter, we are limited in what we can use or dispose of.

I've seen posts from people in Europe saying that many chemicals that can be ordered from Photographer's Formulary, Art Craft, and others in the US cannot be obtained by private citizens across the pond, at least not from in-country suppliers. If this is accurate, it would seem that Europe is further along this road than the US. This might also point to a more serious risk for home-brewers than the general decline of photography making the chemistry harder to obtain: Increased legal restrictions making the chemistry harder to obtain.

dancqu · Sep 21, 2005

jdef said:
Are you using it one-shot, as well? Jay

Yes, 20ml of unadulterated 60% P. Formulary A. Thio. in
500ml of solution; 1:24. That may be more than needed
for a roll of Pan F+. I've not tested for the minimum
using A. Thio. but based the amount on what was
determined a minimum using S. Thio.

Of course as solution volume is reduced the concentration
increases. That would be the usual case for 35mm and
rotary processing in particular. No matter with film as
long as sufficient thiosulfate is present to complex
with the remaining silver halides and leave
some little excess.

I'd think any same strength A. Thio. could be used the
same way, off the shelf or Homebrew. Of course S. Thio.
is always same strength. Spoon up a S. Thio. at processing
time; 16 grams anhydrous, above film. Dan

Ole · Sep 21, 2005

I've done that fixer trich as well - I "overdid it" a bit, using 100ml of 50% ammonium thiosulfate (home mixed) to 400ml developer. Worked just great.

Back on topic (at least one of the topics), I buy my chemicals as a business, not a private citizen. Sometimes it's useful to have a registered business!

gainer · Sep 21, 2005

Let us hope that such homey things as ascorbic acid, borax, washing soda will not be restricted. If we can keep, in addition, at least one of phenidone, metol, or p-aminophenol, we can have a decent developer for B&W. Sodium or potassium sulfite or bisuulfite would also be nice. We should have no trouble getting pyrogallol as it has too many industrial uses and I can't think of any uses of it by terrorists or makers of illegal drugs. I suppose there are many kids who would be overjoyed if spinach and peas and carrots were to be found useful by drug dealers or terrorists.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 21, 2005

gainer said:
I suppose there are many kids who would be overjoyed if spinach and peas and carrots were to be found useful by drug dealers or terrorists.

I'm just thankful every time I go through an airline security gate that that British terrorist was a shoe bomber and not an underwear bomber.

I suppose if we really got desparate, those experiments with caffenol will come in handy, and we'll start asking questions like, "well, how much catechol really is there in human urine, and what do you have to drink to increase the concentration?"

Tom Hoskinson · Sep 21, 2005

Or, how much catechol and hydroquinone are present in cigarette smoke and how much do you need to smoke to achieve usable concentrations for photographic development purposes in your urine?

Photo Engineer · Sep 21, 2005

Try Bill Troop's web site for errata. If this is one, it should be there, if it is and is not posted there, he should know about it.

http://www.graphos.org/

PE

dancqu · Sep 21, 2005

gainer said:
Sodium or potassium sulfite or bisuulfite would also be nice.

The sulfites, ascorbic acid and potassium carbonate; all at
your local Homebrew Beer and Wine outlet.

While there check out the bottles, caps, and cappers. Dan

Donald Qualls · Sep 21, 2005

Dan, citric acid (for odorless stop bath) the local brewer's supply have; ascrobic acid, they don't (tried there first before paying $14/lb at GNC). They will have both sodium sulfite and sodium metabisulfite, however (at least if they support wine as well as beer).

Of course, larger pool supply houses have sodium thiosulfate rice crystals (sold as a chlorine reducer), and you'll always be able to buy very pure 5% acetic acid in grocery stores.

srs5694 · Sep 21, 2005

gainer said:
We should have no trouble getting pyrogallol as it has too many industrial uses and I can't think of any uses of it by terrorists or makers of illegal drugs.

Take this with a grain of salt, but I seem to recall that pyrogallol was one of the things that I'd heard Europeans complaining was impossible to obtain as an individual. As a manufacturer it might be different, of course. It could be my memory's faulty on this point, though, or I might have been listening to people who were looking for pyrogallol in all the wrong places.

Commercial Devs. vs. Custom Chemistry

Ryuji

Ryuji

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dancqu

Ole

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gainer

David A. Goldfarb

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Tom Hoskinson

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Donald Qualls

srs5694

Commercial Devs. vs. Custom Chemistry

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