Commercial Coffenol manufacturer?

cmo · Jan 16, 2008

That's not a joke.

We all heard about that developer made of coffee and soda, many tried it, and the results with this homebrew (!) are not bad.

I just wonder why there is a company that makes a sophisticated commercial product based on Caffenol?

Such a provider might use well-controlled, high-quality chemistry, let's say pure caffeine acid, soda, pure ascorbic acid, maybe some addons that make the process more reliable and exploit the capabilities of this only environmentally friendly "stain" developer.

Lowell Huff · Jan 16, 2008

It can be done. How much would you be willing to buy? Is there enough demand for this type of product to make it economical to manufacture?

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 16, 2008

The caffeine doesn't seem to be a developing agent, but rather things like catechol that occur naturally in coffee and other plant substances. Purify those ingredients and you might as well just use one of the standard pyro developers.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 16, 2008

cmo said:
That's not a joke.

We all heard about that developer made of coffee and soda, many tried it, and the results with this homebrew (!) are not bad.

I just wonder why there is a company that makes a sophisticated commercial product based on Caffenol?

Such a provider might use well-controlled, high-quality chemistry, let's say pure caffeine acid, soda, pure ascorbic acid, maybe some addons that make the process more reliable and exploit the capabilities of this only environmentally friendly "stain" developer.

Folgers Instant coffee crystals (and its the Caffeic acid - not Caffeine).

Pure ascorbic acid (I get mine from Trader Joe's grocery stores)

Monohydrated Sodium carbonate (I get mine from The Chemistry Store)

Kirk Keyes · Jan 16, 2008

Isn't adding ascorbic acid cheating?

By the way, when is someone going to start touting the developing benefits of Emergen-C-ol?

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 16, 2008

Kirk Keyes said:
Isn't adding ascorbic acid cheating?

By the way, when is someone going to start touting the developing benefits of Emergen-C-ol?

Isn't adding ascorbic acid cheating? No! Not at all!

But, adding Sodium Hydroxide and Muriatic Acid would be cheating (and pretty fizzy) as well!

cmo · Jan 17, 2008

There is no cheating except with a digital camera With Muriatic Acid enlarging might become difficult - dodging might be done, but the developer already burnt the negative...

Adding other chemicals to combine their special benefits is okay for me, as long as the developer produces better results.

David, you are right, but as I said in the beginning, one of the interesting aspects of "Java" developers is that they are not toxic, and dumping used devloper into the sink is not a problem. With Pyro developers this is very different: they are pretty toxic, and at least here in Europe it is off limits handling it like a harmless fluid.

Akki14 · Jan 17, 2008

There'd possibly be problems with the variability of the coffee beans/instant coffee (as it probably varies in whatever compounds season to season like most plant materials) and people expect reliable results from a storebought developer, as opposed to them mucking about with stuff at home. Testing and the like would make the price go up which would put off some people. And the other appeal of caffenol is that you can make it from stuff bought at the grocery store, you don't need to go to a photographic supply place to get it.

mabman · Jan 17, 2008

Is it really that popular? I've seen some samples, and at some point I'd like to try it myself (not looking forward to the supposed smell of "burnt bacon grease", though), but it doesn't get a lot of discussion as people's primary developer.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 17, 2008

mabman said:
Is it really that popular? I've seen some samples, and at some point I'd like to try it myself (not looking forward to the supposed smell of "burnt bacon grease", though), but it doesn't get a lot of discussion as people's primary developer.

Fairly popular with folks who develop document films (or Tech Pan) to pictorial contrast levels.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 17, 2008

cmo said:
There is no cheating except with a digital camera With Muriatic Acid enlarging might become difficult - dodging might be done, but the developer already burnt the negative...

Adding other chemicals to combine their special benefits is okay for me, as long as the developer produces better results.

David, you are right, but as I said in the beginning, one of the interesting aspects of "Java" developers is that they are not toxic, and dumping used devloper into the sink is not a problem. With Pyro developers this is very different: they are pretty toxic, and at least here in Europe it is off limits handling it like a harmless fluid.

When you combine Muriatic Acid (AKA Hydrochloric Acid) with Sodium Hydroxide you end up with Sodium Chloride, water, etc., etc. (Kinda like Microdol-X).

And see the current MSDS for Edwal FG-7.

cmo · Jan 17, 2008

mabman said:
Is it really that popular?

My assumption: it might become very popular if it were an improved, reliable, off-the-shelf product.

Simply because it is staining, but not toxic, and the results I have seen so far from Nescafé-and-Folgers homebrew stuff are quite impressive for such a simple recipe. With some experimenting and good scientific knowledge of photo chemicals it might become an excellent developer.

removed account4 · Jan 17, 2008

i use caffenol C all the time,
it works well for my fun in the darkroom ...
i just make sure to get gut rot instant coffee.
the vit. c is the expensive stuff ..
i get mine at whole paycheck,
since we don't have a trader joe's around here

i do cheat a little bit ... sometimes i add some
spent print developer or some straight print developer
to boost the contrast a tiny bit. i usually add about "a splash"
not sure exactly what that measure is exactly, seeing
my coffee is " a big dump",
laundry det. is "a medium dump" and
vit c is "a little dump"

(i stopped using true "international measurements" a while back )

YMMV

john

Brian Bullen · Jan 17, 2008

jnanian said:
i use caffenol C all the time,
it works well for my fun in the darkroom ...
i just make sure to get gut rot instant coffee.
the vit. c is the expensive stuff ..
i get mine at whole paycheck,
since we don't have a trader joe's around here

John, for ascorbic acid try this place, http://store.allhealthtrends.com/pgi-customlistproducts?Ascorbic Acid,2,157,=,AA, relatively cheap and works well in my Caff+C recipe. I'm much more precise in measuring though, I use the pour and count method. Very precise.

cahayapemburu · Jan 17, 2008

What does this developer do that a real developer couldn't do better?

tac · Jan 18, 2008

stink?

titrisol · Jan 18, 2008

Caffeic acid is a close cousin of catechol
So a pyro developer (commercial) will work more or less the same

Adding vitC increases the activity/shadow detail and lowers the stain
it if is cheating... so what?

I really think commercial versions would be no fun

cmo said:
My assumption: it might become very popular if it were an improved, reliable, off-the-shelf product.

Simply because it is staining, but not toxic, and the results I have seen so far from Nescafé-and-Folgers homebrew stuff are quite impressive for such a simple recipe. With some experimenting and good scientific knowledge of photo chemicals it might become an excellent developer.

removed account4 · Jan 20, 2008

PhotoBulley said:
John, for ascorbic acid try this place, http://store.allhealthtrends.com/pgi-customlistproducts?Ascorbic Acid,2,157,=,AA, relatively cheap and works well in my Caff+C recipe. I'm much more precise in measuring though, I use the pour and count method. Very precise.

thanks brian!

when i run out this time,
i will give your place a looksy

john

Brian Bullen · Jan 20, 2008

No problem John.
I'm not sure how much it is at "whole paycheck" but I'd guess twice the price.:rolleyes:

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 20, 2008

Define Real Developer, Please!

cahayapemburu said:
What does this developer do that a real developer couldn't do better?

Define Real Developer, Please!

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 20, 2008

cahayapemburu said:
What does this developer do that a real developer couldn't do better?

It can be made from stuff available at the grocery store.

cahayapemburu · Jan 20, 2008

Define "real developer": One in which the actual developing agent is identified and quantified, for starters, and one in which there are no ingredients that do not contribute to the working properties of the developer. If this developer is only distinguished by its over the counter ingredients, I don't see the point in commercial production.

Tom Hoskinson · Jan 20, 2008

cahayapemburu said:
Define "real developer": One in which the actual developing agent is identified and quantified, for starters, and one in which there are no ingredients that do not contribute to the working properties of the developer. If this developer is only distinguished by its over the counter ingredients, I don't see the point in commercial production.

OK, Caffenol (aka Folgerol) meets all of the requirements of your definition.

I see no point in the commercial production of Caffenol.

Pyrocat-HD, Moersch Tannol, PMK,WD2D, 510-PYR0, Prescysol, DiXactol, etc. are examples of commercially available staining and tanning developers.

cahayapemburu · Jan 20, 2008

I don't think Caffenol meets my definition. What is the actual developing agent, how much of it is contained in a given quantity of coffee, and how do you know? What is the chemical composition of coffee, and how do its components contribute to the working properties of a developer made with it? If these things are known with any certainty, I've never seen a published description. I understand the novelty of making a working developer from household ingredients, but I also understand the limitations of that approach, and frankly don't understand the persistence of the attraction beyond its novelty. Any and all of the developers listed at the bottom of your message are more effective and more reliable, and most are published formulae. Just calling a spade a spade.

Brian Bullen · Jan 20, 2008

cahayapemburu said:
I don't think Caffenol meets my definition. What is the actual developing agent, how much of it is contained in a given quantity of coffee, and how do you know? What is the chemical composition of coffee, and how do its components contribute to the working properties of a developer made with it? If these things are known with any certainty, I've never seen a published description. I understand the novelty of making a working developer from household ingredients, but I also understand the limitations of that approach, and frankly don't understand the persistence of the attraction beyond its novelty. Any and all of the developers listed at the bottom of your message are more effective and more reliable, and most are published formulae. Just calling a spade a spade.

Have you read this? http://www.rit.edu/~andpph/text-coffee.html

Commercial Coffenol manufacturer?

cmo

Lowell Huff

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Tom Hoskinson

Kirk Keyes

Tom Hoskinson

cmo

Akki14

mabman

Tom Hoskinson

Tom Hoskinson

cmo

removed account4

Brian Bullen

cahayapemburu

tac

titrisol

removed account4

Brian Bullen

Tom Hoskinson

David A. Goldfarb

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cahayapemburu

Tom Hoskinson

cahayapemburu

Brian Bullen

Commercial Coffenol manufacturer?

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