Combination needed for finest grain dev

David Allen · Feb 1, 2018

macfred said:
Adox - discontinued products : http://www.adox.de/Photo/discontinued-products/

That old message from Fotoimpex was regarding CHS film. CMS20 is available - indeed I bought a roll of it yesterday from FotoImpex.

Regarding the OP's original question one simply needs to view the technical details of the image on Flickr. From this it is quite clear that there is no medium format, no exotic developer and no fancy scan behind the very low grain. It is simply that the photographer used a slow film (Rollei RPX 25 / 135) developed in a pretty standard developer (Kodak D76 1+1 for 8 minutes).

Bests,

David.
www.dsallen.de

macfred · Feb 1, 2018

David Allen said:
That old message from Fotoimpex was regarding CHS film ...

You're right, David - I posted the link above because of this note :
... Other ADOX products are NOT affected by this as they are already made by us in Germany ...

trendland · Feb 1, 2018

pentaxuser said:
So you now seem to be saying that you had no good reason to say what you did earlier and you have now changed your mind. Why persist in these kind of comments? I suspect your credibility has already disappeared with a lot of people here but if you have useful things to say why risk reducing it further by what people will regard as further evidence of making unsubstantiated outbursts.

On the brighter side you may decide that this post constitutes my last effort to give you any advice on your contributions to Photrio and you would be right .

pentaxuser

Pentaxuser - I can't have all information
correct in mind. If I sometimes remember something wrong - I have indeed no problem to state the different.

with regards

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2018

A very old trick for reducing apparent grain is to use a grain focusser and stop the enlarging lens down to the point that grain just begins to become indistinct.

trendland · Feb 1, 2018

darkosaric said:
???
http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-2/cms-20-ii-adotech-ii/

This is the first time that I hear that Adox put CMS20 out of production... can you please share a reference link about this?

Pls. notice the difference between CMS20 and the new CMS20II darcoraric.

with regards

Ian Grant · Feb 1, 2018

The OP is asking about the best film/developer combination one I'd suggest which gives excellent fine grain is Tmax100 and Rodinal @ 50 EI, better still was the genuine Agfa APX100 as you got full box speed - 100 ISO I used both films with Rodinal at 2 to 100 for normal contrast, most people assume the prints were from 120 in fact they were shot with my Leica M3.

If you want fine grain you need tight temperature control though out the process including washing.

Ian

trendland · Feb 1, 2018

E. von Hoegh said:
A very old trick for reducing apparent grain is to use a grain focusser and stop the enlarging lens down to the point that grain just begins to become indistinct.

Well - that might be a good point. But this method will reduce the resolution.
The idea of the OP is more in the direction to have both - so it seams to me - finest grain AND High resolution.
The old conflict, special with some bw films wich are perfectly designed to have finest grain.

with regards

E. von Hoegh · Feb 1, 2018

trendland said:
Well - that might be a good point. But this method will reduce the resolution.
The idea of the OP is more in the direction to have both - so it seams to me - finest grain AND High resolution.
The old conflict, special with some bw films wich are perfectly designed to have finest grain.

with regards

As I said, it's a trick.

trendland · Feb 1, 2018

Ian Grant said:
The OP is asking about the best film/developer combination one I'd suggest which gives excellent fine grain is Tmax100 and Rodinal @ 50 EI, better still was the genuine Agfa APX100 as you got full box speed - 100 ISO I used both films with Rodinal at 2 to 100 for normal contrast, most people assume the prints were from 120 in fact they were shot with my Leica M3.

If you want fine grain you need tight temperature control though out the process including washing.

Ian

Rodinal ? APX 100 ? Finest grain ?
THAT SHOULD MAKE CLEAR WHAT A RELATIVE THE ISSUE FINE GRAIN IS !
Seriously the issues with characteristcs of bw films in regard of sharpness or in regard of resolution or the comparison from finest grain to extrem fine grain is often not such easy as the thoughts of the OP might be.
The key to come to sharpness with rodinal seams to be stand developement
(adjacency effects) / edge effects.
TO me no real sharpness because it can't
higher the resolution. But it looks like.
The highly delution of Rodinal reduces grain ? The different E.I. with Tmax ( E.I. 50 ASA ) should definitivly fulfill this task.
Well - tight temperature you mentioned is in concern of reticulation in its different strong characteritics - I would guess because you mentioned explicide the washing.
With sharpness on highest level/highly resolution we often forget the lens - and the tripod....
Well - Ian, your sugesstion with Rodinal
AND AGFA APX100 is a new method
(I never heard before) but you may have you points to use this. I have to think about. Perhaps I will try it to compare.
So we should have a focus on APX 100
this film is better as many might know.
with regards

Ian Grant · Feb 1, 2018

trendland said:
Rodinal ? APX 100 ? Finest grain ?
THAT SHOULD MAKE CLEAR WHAT A RELATIVE THE ISSUE FINE GRAIN IS !
Seriously the issues with characteristcs of bw films in regard of sharpness or in regard of resolution or the comparison from finest grain to extrem fine grain is often not such easy as the thoughts of the OP might be.
The key to come to sharpness with rodinal seams to be stand developement
(adjacency effects) / edge effects.
TO me no real sharpness because it can't
higher the resolution. But it looks like.
The highly delution of Rodinal reduces grain ? The different E.I. with Tmax ( E.I. 50 ASA ) should definitivly fulfill this task.
Well - tight temperature you mentioned is in concern of reticulation in its different strong characteritics - I would guess because you mentioned explicide the washing.
With sharpness on highest level/highly resolution we often forget the lens - and the tripod....
Well - Ian, your sugesstion with Rodinal
AND AGFA APX100 is a new method
(I never heard before) but you may have you points to use this. I have to think about. Perhaps I will try it to compare.
So we should have a focus on APX 100
this film is better as many might know.
with regards

The late Peter Goldfield who spent a year assisting Minor White, was later the importer of Agfa products in the UK after Agfa pulled out of the market for a while, swore by Rodinal and Agfa AP 100. It was actually Agfa's own recommendation for the highest quality results with the film which was superseded by Agfa APX 100, so it's nothing new.

Agfa APX100 was probably the best practical B&W film when it was available (I don't mean the re-badged AgfaPhoto APX100 which is made for them by Ilford). AP then APX 25 were of course finer grained still and sharper but at 25 ISO less practical for hand-held work.

I did my own speed and development tests with both Tmax 100 and APX 100 and like many other found I needed to shoot Tmax 100 at 50 EI to get shadow details, I actually processed both for the same dev times often together in the same tanks and the negatives printed on the same grade etc and were comparable in quality, APX 100 was just a stop faster.

Tmax 100 (and 400) and Agfa-Gevaert APX 100 are inherently finer grained than conventional films you don't need a high sulphite semi solvent developer to get that inherent fine grain which is why Rodinal works so well. I wouldn't call the dilution I used 3 to 100 highly dilute, that's 1 to 100 or more.

Ian

trendland · Feb 1, 2018

Ian Grant said:
The late Peter Goldfield who spent a year assisting Minor White, was later the importer of Agfa products in the UK after Agfa pulled out of the market for a while, swore by Rodinal and Agfa AP 100. It was actually Agfa's own recommendation for the highest quality results with the film which was superseded by Agfa APX 100, so it's nothing new.

Agfa APX100 was probably the best practical B&W film when it was available (I don't mean the re-badged AgfaPhoto APX100 which is made for them by Ilford). AP then APX 25 were of course finer grained still and sharper but at 25 ISO less practical for hand-held work.

I did my own speed and development tests with both Tmax 100 and APX 100 and like many other found I needed to shoot Tmax 100 at 50 EI to get shadow details, I actually processed both for the same dev times often together in the same tanks and the negatives printed on the same grade etc and were comparable in quality, APX 100 was just a stop faster.

Tmax 100 (and 400) and Agfa-Gevaert APX 100 are inherently finer grained than conventional films you don't need a high sulphite semi solvent developer to get that inherent fine grain which is why Rodinal works so well. I wouldn't call the dilution I used 3 to 100 highly dilute, that's 1 to 100 or more.

Ian

Thanks lot that you mentioned Agfa AP/APX 25 Ian.
It came just in my mind as I remember on this threat.
In the way : What about Agfas 25 ASA Films? And I could slap myself not to buy the right stuff to the right time.
(original APX in all speeds were niced priced as bulks).
If I can find the time I indeed will have a try like your describtion.
Thanks for your expertise - looks like I would buy also Rodinal because my last stand developement 2009 let it get off.

with regards

Craig · Feb 1, 2018

michael_r said:
T-Max 100 and XTOL.

Or Delta 100 in Xtol. That's a lovely combination.

Sirius Glass · Feb 1, 2018

michael_r said:
T-Max 100 and XTOL.

Craig said:
Or Delta 100 in Xtol. That's a lovely combination.

This would produce the smallest grain with the least amount of effort.

Cholentpot · Feb 1, 2018

Ian Grant said:
The OP is asking about the best film/developer combination one I'd suggest which gives excellent fine grain is Tmax100 and Rodinal @ 50 EI, better still was the genuine Agfa APX100 as you got full box speed - 100 ISO I used both films with Rodinal at 2 to 100 for normal contrast, most people assume the prints were from 120 in fact they were shot with my Leica M3.

If you want fine grain you need tight temperature control though out the process including washing.

Ian

Tmax 100 @ ISO 50. Whats the dilution for the Rodinal? What temp and time? I'd like to try this.

Ian Grant · Feb 2, 2018

All processing at 20ºC inversion agitation, 2 inversions a minute in Paterson or Jobo tanks (my Jobo's are pre rotary).

Dilution 3:100 6½ minutes APX100 @ 100 ISO, Tmax 100 @ 50 EI. This was for Normal development ie typical average contrast range). I preferred to use 1:25 for N+2 development. and 1:60 for N-1, N-2 development.

The reasons for the tight temperature control is Rodinal contains free hydroxide which can soften the gelatin super coat (and even reticulate acros) with poor temperature control, wash water temperature is often neglected.

I'd add that when I began using Tmax 100 and Rodinal Xtol hadn't been released, Tmax films aren't particularly good in D76/ID-11 (see Kodak's own comparison chart) but are excellent in Xtol particularly replenished. Differences are most noticeable when shooting 35mm.

Ian

Cholentpot · Feb 2, 2018

Ian Grant said:
All processing at 20ºC inversion agitation, 2 inversions a minute in Paterson or Jobo tanks (my Jobo's are pre rotary).

Dilution 3:100 6½ minutes APX100 @ 100 ISO, Tmax 100 @ 50 EI. This was for Normal development ie typical average contrast range). I preferred to use 1:25 for N+2 development. and 1:60 for N-1, N-2 development.

The reasons for the tight temperature control is Rodinal contains free hydroxide which can soften the gelatin super coat (and even reticulate acros) with poor temperature control, wash water temperature is often neglected.

I'd add that when I began using Tmax 100 and Rodinal Xtol hadn't been released, Tmax films aren't particularly good in D76/ID-11 (see Kodak's own comparison chart) but are excellent in Xtol particularly replenished. Differences are most noticeable when shooting 35mm.

Ian

So that's about 3ml of rodinal to 300 ml of water? That sounds weak and short. Something I do in a stand development.

Tmax 100 in D-76 has been golden for me.

Ian Grant · Feb 2, 2018

Cholentpot said:
So that's about 3ml of rodinal to 300 ml of water? That sounds weak and short. Something I do in a stand development.

Tmax 100 in D-76 has been golden for me.

No 3;100 is 3 ml Rodinal made up to 100ml with water, so 9 to 300 if you need a total volume of 300ml. You should see a difference with Rodinal or Xtol in sharpness an slightly finer grain.

Ian

Cholentpot · Feb 2, 2018

Ian Grant said:
No 3;100 is 3 ml Rodinal made up to 100ml with water, so 9 to 300 if you need a total volume of 300ml. You should see a difference with Rodinal or Xtol in sharpness an slightly finer grain.

Ian

Ah, got it. I'll try that this summer.

Combination needed for finest grain dev

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