Combination needed for finest grain dev

Odot · Jan 31, 2018

Ive seen this image and cannot help but notice how fine the grain is on here. Its almost non existent so i wonder if anyone has experience developing something like this? I am stunned by the overall quality..the image was shot on 135 film with a Nikon F75. This is what makes the clarity so special

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

Odot thats a question with very simple answer :
1.) higher formats = minimum 120 films
better 4x5 inch or higher
2.) Low speed = minimum ISO 100 better ISO 50 (PanF) or lower ISO 25/ISO 12/ISO6
3) PULL Deveopment but the sharpness comes a little bad - as you might know you can't get both (highest sharpness with extreme fine grain) and also tonals suffers a bit from too much pulling.
Last have a try with Delta 100 E.I. ISO25
recomanded developer : PERCEPTOL/D23/Microdol-x.
Have a try with 135 films if you then notice grain - change to 120 films.
Bon Chance

PS : With 4x5 you are save from grain in
max. 1m 40cm x 2m....

If this is not enough to you have a try with special emulsions or use 5 x 7 (just to come a bit over 2 meter )
If this isn't enough you have to use 8 x 10 but then it becomes a little more expensive But Do you need 2,60 m x 3,90 m ?

JensH · Jan 31, 2018

Odot said:
Ive seen this image and cannot help but notice how fine the grain is on here. Its almost non existent so i wonder if anyone has experience developing something like this? I am stunned by the overall quality..

Hallo Odot,

the description says it was Rollei RPX 25 (135) developed in D76 1:1, so nothing exotic.
I often use the very similar Ilford PanF Plus (@25 EI) in Moersch MZB two bath dev. - works great.
One of these films in Ilford Perceptol would give even finer grain... and there are special films like Adox CMS20 or larger negatives.

Greetings
Jens

Odot · Jan 31, 2018

trendland said:
Odot thats a question with very simple answer :
1.) higher formats = minimum 120 films
better 4x5 inch or higher
2.) Low speed = minimum ISO 100 better ISO 50 (PanF) or lower ISO 25/ISO 12/ISO6
3) PULL Deveopment but the sharpness comes a little bad - as you might know you can't get both (highest sharpness with extreme fine grain) and also tonals suffers a bit from too much pulling.
Last have a try with Delta 100 E.I. ISO25
recomanded developer : PERCEPTOL/D23/Microdol-x.
Have a try with 135 films if you then notice grain - change to 120 films.
Bon Chance

PS : With 4x5 you are save from grain in
max. 1m 40cm x 2m....

If this is not enough to you have a try with special emulsions or use 5 x 7 (just to come a bit over 2 meter )
If this isn't enough you have to use 8 x 10 but then it becomes a little more expensive But Do you need 2,60 m x 3,90 m ?

Hey, looks like you havent noticed it but the image was shot on 135 film with a Nikon F75. This is what makes the clarity so special

RalphLambrecht · Jan 31, 2018

Odot said:
Ive seen this image and cannot help but notice how fine the grain is on here. Its almost non existent so i wonder if anyone has experience developing something like this? I am stunned by the overall quality..

great image quality but no surprise;I get fine grain like this with 120 TMax films developed in D76 every time. You just need a large negative and a fie-grain or solvent-type developer.

darkosaric · Jan 31, 2018

Adox CMS 20, in Adotech. But you need to use Nikon F80 or higher, not F75.

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

Oh sorry Odot I just did not find the link.It is the smal line under "image" - that's clear now.
Well Delta100 is good to 1meter without visible grain (Perceptol E.I. 25) also with
Nikon F75

with regards

PS : Tmax100 should work in the same way as Delta100. PanF with E.I. ISO 12 is from grain a very little smaler than Delta100 but then you have ISO 12 !

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

Ok I saw the picture on flickr but let me short state : I is no reference to smal grain. It is a reference to a good scan in high resolution.

with regards

And it depends very strong on used software (without having a grain reducing software - I mean raw scan software)

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

Jens Hallfeldt said:
Hallo Odot,

the description says it was Rollei RPX 25 (135) developed in D76 1:1, so nothing exotic.
I often use the very similar Ilford PanF Plus (@25 EI) in Moersch MZB two bath dev. - works great.
One of these films in Ilford Perceptol would give even finer grain... and there are special films like Adox CMS20 or larger negatives.

Greetings
Jens

CMS 20 is out of production Jens. Be save and order this film because it will be discontinued next.
And the CMS 100 is not as excellent.

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

darkosaric said:
Adox CMS 20, in Adotech. But you need to use Nikon F80 or higher, not F75.

Darkosaric sure this is allways coming from you !
Notice if you couln't afford a Nikon F100 in the past / or you have not had the intention to spend so many bucks a Nikon F80 isn't the real busty camera.
You should have the Nikon F80s...

with regards

PS : I've got two of them for the price of one F80 (2006). But it is not compareable with old Nikon Metal Cameras like F3 isn't it

JensH · Jan 31, 2018

trendland said:
CMS 20 is out of production Jens. Be save and order this film because it will be discontinued next.
And the CMS 100 is not as excellent.

Hi trendland,
indeed I ordered CMS20II in 135 and 120 last December...
Why will it be discontinued? No more of this film from Belgium?
The CMS 100II is a great film (like Agfa (Leverkusen) APX 100 was), but completely different.
Best
Jens

Jarin Blaschke · Jan 31, 2018

Odot said:
Ive seen this image and cannot help but notice how fine the grain is on here. Its almost non existent so i wonder if anyone has experience developing something like this? I am stunned by the overall quality..the image was shot on 135 film with a Nikon F75. This is what makes the clarity so special

I'm not sure why some are mentioning 120 here, as your example is 35mm. The fine grain in this case comes from a very slow film paired with a solvent developer. The latter softens the grain at the expense of sharpness. The tonality looks very "S" as well, with all highlights compressed into one limited light tone and all dark areas compressed into a limited dark tone, but that's another matter and taste.

Jarin

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

Jens Hallfeldt said:
Hi trendland,
indeed I ordered CMS20II in 135 and 120 last December...
Why will it be discontinued? No more of this film from Belgium?
The CMS 100II is a great film (like Agfa (Leverkusen) APX 100 was), but completely different.
Best
Jens

Jens the CMS100 is not a bad film but it is not to compare with CMS 20 from excellent resolution and extreme fine grain - you would agree?
I don't remember right now the source of CMS20 but from bad remind it isn't identical with Agfa Copex Rapid.
Therefore the new name CMSII. So it can't be come from Agfa.
If I could better remember ? From what manufacturer comes the ADOX Films originaly? That should be the same source of the CMS 20II. And this manufacturer isn't still working.
Well I have it now : fotokemica/efke films. And I can't say at what time but this film has to get off next.
The new CMS100 is coming from Foma films / sometimes from Ilford .
It may change within the todays emulsion. But never mind if it is a good film.
But be aware because one day you weak up in the morning and notice massive price increasement of CMS 20II and later you may realize : This film isn't to buy anywhere .....

.
Therefore my personal hind : You should hamster this film soon - there is also no cheaper offer in the future.
with regards

JensH · Jan 31, 2018

trendland said:
Jens the CMS100 is not a bad film but it is not to compare with CMS 20 from excellent resolution and extreme fine grain - you would agree?

Yes, absolutely.

I ment the newer Adox CMS100II made by Adox near Berlin, not the older Adox CMS100 by Fotokemica.
AFAIK Adox CMS20II is Agfa Copex HDP microfilm made in Belgium;
Adox CMS20 is/was Agfa HDP 13;
Agfa Copex Rapid is a different one.

trendland said:
But be aware because one day you weak up in the morning and notice massive price increasement of CMS 20II and later you may realize : This film isn't to buy anywhere ......

So it happened with Fuji Provia 400X... :-(

Best
Jens

trendland · Jan 31, 2018

Jens Hallfeldt said:
Yes, absolutely.

I ment the newer Adox CMS100II made by Adox near Berlin, not the older Adox CMS100 by Fotokemica.
AFAIK Adox CMS20II is Agfa Copex HDP microfilm made in Belgium;
Adox CMS20 is/was Agfa HDP 13;
Agfa Copex Rapid is a different one.

So it happened with Fuji Provia 400X... :-(

Best
Jens

Well Jens I have to search / have a look on my notes. If CMS20II is based on Agfa Copex there is no need of discontinuation soon.
(If there are enough remaining master rolls from Copex)
But last issue also is a bit frightend.
Seams to be Copex isn't avaible just the smal rest of it...?
I have to look at it soon because I need the film. Better let me hamster first - secondly you Jens

with regards

Years ago there were so absolut nice prices from Rollei - but caused from nice pricing I had thoughts - This I will manage later

Soon it can be too late....

JensH · Jan 31, 2018

Hi again!

trendland said:
I have to look at it soon because I need the film. Better let me hamster first - secondly you Jens

Do it! I won't reorder the next months, I promise.
I'm hording mainly Provia 100F and Acros 100 in 4x5"...

trendland said:
Years ago there were so absolut nice prices from Rollei

... now there is little difference:
ROLLEI RPX 25 135-36 5.95 Euro
Ilford PanF Plus 135-36 6.35 Euro
(Fotoimpex)

Greetings and much fun with the CMS!
Jens

pentaxuser · Jan 31, 2018

trendland said:
Well Jens I have to search / have a look on my notes. If CMS20II is based on Agfa Copex there is no need of discontinuation soon.

with regards

So you now seem to be saying that you had no good reason to say what you did earlier and you have now changed your mind. Why persist in these kind of comments? I suspect your credibility has already disappeared with a lot of people here but if you have useful things to say why risk reducing it further by what people will regard as further evidence of making unsubstantiated outbursts.

On the brighter side you may decide that this post constitutes my last effort to give you any advice on your contributions to Photrio and you would be right .

pentaxuser

JensH · Jan 31, 2018

... keep calm - errare humanum est.

Good light
Jens

Mick Fagan · Feb 1, 2018

Odot, I would suggest some reasons why this image looks good are down to the choice of lens, chosen film, chosen developer and the low contrast light situation.

If you can have a low contrast light set-up, then combine this with a high(ish) contrast lens, add this to a film that has very good resolution and reasonable contrast, then you should get what the photographer ended up with.

Another bit of information is how the photographer used the lens. If the image shown is the full frame, then I would suggest the photographer is about 2.5m to 3.5m away from the subject. Critical focus appears to be on her right eyebrow, running up to her hair and down to the knot of clothing, suggesting the photographer has used the lens wide open at f/1.8 or possibly stopped down to f/2.

If you see something that you like, if possible, analyse the things that have been brought together to make the image to your liking; these are some of the ways in which I look at images to help me get better.

Mick.

Sirius Glass · Feb 1, 2018

The Nikon N75 uses the same lenses that any other Nikon slr uses. So that part is without merit.
The choice of film makes a difference. Lower speed films have finer grain, but tabular grain is finer than traditional grain even for a low ISO film.
The rest of the answer is here:

darkosaric · Feb 1, 2018

trendland said:
CMS 20 is out of production

???
http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-2/cms-20-ii-adotech-ii/

This is the first time that I hear that Adox put CMS20 out of production... can you please share a reference link about this?

mnemosyne · Feb 1, 2018

IMO, the OP misses a crucial point: The example shown was tweaked by the scanner software and most likely also heavily edited in a picture editor to get this "digital look", there is really no way to draw any conclusions regarding actual characteristics or properties of the film from what we are shown here. You would need to look at a wet print. With a skilled operator and good scanning hardware it is surely possible to achieve a similar look with a FP4+ negative processed in Rodinal.

darkosaric · Feb 1, 2018

mnemosyne said:
Rodinal.

Example in Rodinal that I have made, and the film is not the best film at - almost every film from Ilford and Kodak has smaller grain structure than this one:

Dead Link Removed

macfred · Feb 1, 2018

darkosaric said:
???
http://www.adox.de/Photo/adox-films-2/cms-20-ii-adotech-ii/

This is the first time that I hear that Adox put CMS20 out of production... can you please share a reference link about this?

It's available / in stock in 135 https://www.fotoimpex.de/shop/syste...me 135&wkid=31505692608717&nocache=1517484377 - 120 is anounced for February, 15th.
I never heard that this film should be discontinued .

macfred · Feb 1, 2018

Adox - discontinued products : http://www.adox.de/Photo/discontinued-products/

Combination needed for finest grain dev

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