colour vs b/w difficult?

ive recently started developing and printing in black and white. I really enjoy it. It's easier than I expected to produce nice looking images.

How does colour developing and printing compare to black and white? Is it much harder? Is there vastly more work involved?

I have tried once: if you have color head on you enlarger - you can give it a try. You must work in total darkness, to get the colors right takes some practice (10 papers were trashed before I got the color balance right). Good is that developing and fixing of the paper is very fast, and washing as well.
Somehow I was more careful with color chemicals that with B&W ones, they smell worse - so I worked shorter time in the darkroom. But just use common sense and it will be ok.

What is important: It is fun .

Once you've done your first good colour prints it's relatively easy, perhaps easier as there's less variables.

Ian

Colour is easier, especially if you use a roller processor. Process consistency is the key.
Getting a perfectly fine-tuned print will take some effort of course. On the other hand, I've been able to churn out decent quality snapshots from clean uncut 35 mm negatives at a rate of about a print per minute.
A beginner will benefit from a colour analyser. It's useful to shoot a frame of neutral grey on each film/batch of film as a reference.
Colour safelights help a lot once your eyes get used to their very dim light, they are however not really necessary.
Good darkroom ventilation is essential.
I buy Kodak Endura Premier in rolls and cut it into sheets, using a DIY rig. The cost is much lower this way.

Color development is much easier with a rotary processor with temperature control. The most important part is the temperature control and next is the timing for development. The rest is similar to black & white development.

Color print processing can be done in trays just like b&w, and at room temperature, with only 2-3 solutions, making it quick and easy. One developer known to work well at room temperature is Kodak RA-RT Developer Replenisher (2 minutes@68F). Works well with Kodak Endura paper and Fuji Crystal Archive II paper.

Color film developing has additional steps over b&w, and temperture control is important, but there is nothing really hard about it.

"As easy as falling off a motorcycle."

tomfrh said:

ive recently started developing and printing in black and white. I really enjoy it. It's easier than I expected to produce nice looking images.

How does colour developing and printing compare to black and white? Is it much harder? Is there vastly more work involved?

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Difficulty level quite high if you want expert results. Since contrast control is very difficult, you need negatives that are correctly exposed with appropriate scene illumination for good results. As with all things related to the darkroom, good negatives are always easier to print.

I find high quality black and white more difficult to achieve than high quality color. Most of my experience is with Ilfochrome though, I'm still a relative newbie to RA-4 but if anything its easier. Of course if you want to take it to the elite level it takes years of dedicated work, but so does black and white. As others have said temp control and color balance are the key. I've never used a color balancer in my life (except for the one my dad had in the 60's, which was huge and weighed about 30 lbs), always have used Kodak Print Viewing Filters. I've thought about getting an analyzer in my old age though (not here quite yet), I figure there must be thousands of good cheap ones laying around/getting thrown out. But I figure the final print still has to pass the eye test even if I had one.

I tried color developing once (no darkroom, so no wet printing). I liked that the times were the same across the spectrum of film manufacturers, but the temperature control was my problem. If you have a way of maintaining a consistent temperature, I'd say it's easier. It's just getting the consistency that was my problem.

As far as 'color is easy', the challenging part (vs. B&W) is process temperature control, and evaluating proper color balance of a wet print

+1

Like "ic-racer" said, the biggest problem is the missing contrast control. You can get good results with good negatives, but there is always a point, when you come to the limits. Modern papers are quite high in contrast (optimized for RGB laser exposing) and some situtations can make it impossible to get good prints.
For example landscape pictures on a Kodak Ektar taken in bright sunlight are sometimes unprintable.
You can do contrast masking, but who has the time for all this today? I did this but it is a hell of work.
On the other side, if you want higher saturation in color, you have the same problem.
Dodge and burn is possible but not as easy like with B/W. You can get color shifts. Changing exposure time changes color a bit. So if you want to burn part of the sky, for example, you must make a second exposure with slightly changed color filtration for the sky, so it will not become green or red.
This all is very difficult and needs very very long time of experience.
Depending on your negative, you have exactly ONE "correct" print with defined contrast and color saturation and that's it! Compared to the options you have with electronic picture processing, this could be a bit boring after a while.
When processing B/W, you just can put in another filter to change your contrast of Multigrade or use another developer to change contrast. You also can dodge and burn very easy. So the creative possibilities are much higher.

Sure, color is fun! And it is not very expensive. Rolls of paper are very cheap compared with B/W-paper.
But if you EXPECT professional results, you must spend lots of time.

evaluating proper color balance of a wet print

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The change of color from a wet print to a dry print depends strongly on the brand of the paper. So I would start to 1. buy a 5000K lamp for graphical work as lightsource to check the colors and 2. buy a roller PE-dryer in Ebay to dry the prints before evaluating colors. Color printing takes enough time, so you don't want to waste the rest of your time with drying test strips with a hairdryer...
The right lightsource is very important. I use a Philips Master TL-D Graphical light tube (about $10) for color inspection.
There is nothing worse than finding all your prints worthless the next day at daylight, after spending the whole night making prints when all colors looked nice under your tungsten light bulb.

In my eyes, a color analyzer is NOT necessary. Most analyzers from the 80s of the last century are NOT useable with modern film and paper. Papers are much more light sensitive than early papers and sometimes, you cannot set the paper index of the analyzer to the required level. So if you want an analyzer, you should take the most modern version you can get.
But in my eyes you can save that money. Learning color filtration is much more effective by doing it manually from the beginning.
With some experience you don't need more than 2-3 teststripes to get the right filtration.

Joachim

tomfrh said:

ive recently started developing and printing in black and white. I really enjoy it. It's easier than I expected to produce nice looking images.

How does colour developing and printing compare to black and white? Is it much harder? Is there vastly more work involved?

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can only speak for myself;I found it to be a lot harder;only tried Cibachrome and gave it up for digital color printing, which is hard enough.

RA4 is great fun and not difficult at all. My tips:

Try and get hold of a vertical four slot heated Nova tank. They are quicker than using rotary tanks and keep the chemicals fresh for weeks with replenishment. I can get through six or seven big prints, including test sheets, in three hours.

You don't have to work in total darkness. Get a colour safe light and attach a foot switch so you can have a few seconds of light at critical times, such as when you move paper between slots or arrange it on the easel.

Try and use one paper and one film to start with so you get to grips with the colour cast.

Make loads of notes so you have a good starting point for your enlarger settings. I have my settings noted for the paper, film and light types, so I can dial them in and get started. That way I can sometimes get the print right first time with no cast.

Buy some viewing filters. These are coloured gels that you view the print through to determine the colour cast. I have the Kodak ones. They come up on eBay all the time for peanuts.

Make sure you assess your prints in the light you will view them in, usually daylight. I print at night, so either assess them in the morning or use a daylight bulb. I find the bulb is okay, but the real light often shows up slight casts that I missed using the bulb.

Give it a go. When you see a big, beautiful, full colour print come out of the tank, I guarantee it will put a huge smile on your face.

FujiLove said:

Get a colour safe light and attach a foot switch so you can have a few seconds of light at critical times, such as when you move paper between slots or arrange it on the easel.

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Colour safelights using Sodium vapour lamps will not work with a footswitch, because they need a 5 minute heat-up period.
So this must be an LED based lamp.

Joachim

Ian Grant said:

Once you've done your first good colour prints it's relatively easy, perhaps easier as there's less variables.

Ian

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This.

You also do NOT NEED a color head. Yes, they make life easier for printing color but they are not essential. If your enlarger has a filter drawer (and pretty much all condenser enlargers do) you can make color prints just fine with a set of color printing filters like these:

3"x3" set:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/31633-Arista-RA4-Color-Filters-3x3-in.-22-Pack

6"x6" set:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/31636-Arista-RA4-Color-Filters-6x6-in.-22-Pack

A color head makes filter changes a little quicker and easier, and gives you the benefit of a diffusion light source (makes scratches and dust less prominent) but back in the 80s and 90s I probably made at least a couple of hundred prints on Type-R, Ilfochrome (called Cibachrome then) and RA4 using filters.

You can also process RA4 at room temperature with adjustments to the developing time. Times are still not all that long, akin to black and white times. Search the forum here for more detailed info on that.

JoJo said:

Colour safelights using Sodium vapour lamps will not work with a footswitch, because they need a 5 minute heat-up period.
So this must be an LED based lamp.

Joachim

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There are a couple of alternatives (I happen to have a sodium safelight that's safe for RA4, at least until the lamp goes so I don't use it for B&W but there are alternatives.)

There are LED safelights that are safe for color if used carefully that can be switched instant on/off. And there is also the conventional filter for a regular safelight (I forget the filter number but someone will know.) I have worked with one of these and it is VERY dim, but it does allow seeing outlines and you will find that is far better than seeing nothing.

Fujilove above has some good tips.

Another tip: don't try to evaluate a wet print. I'm not saying some people don't get so they can do it, but it's not worth it. Use a hair dryer. Just take your test print and blast it from close range with that hair dryer (it's a test print, don't worry about it.) You'll see the color and density change before your eyes and have a dry test in no time.

While in general I agree that black and white has more options, or at least easier options, to change the results, there are a few that are unique to color as well. Just as you can use different VC filters for different areas in a black and white print, you can also burn in areas of a color print with different filtration. You can even make a dodging wand out of a piece of filter material and simultaneously lighten and change the color of an area (careful not to overdo it, as in black and white a subtle touch is usually best.)

PE has posted about varying the contrast of RA4 by developer additives. I never did that (didn't know about it) back when I printed color but I will try it when I start again. On the down side IIRC he said it greatly shortens the life of the developer, but OTOH if you get the bulk Kodak stuff the RA4 developer is cheap enough it doesn't matter much.

Roger Cole said:

You also do NOT NEED a color head.

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Roger Cole said:

You can also process RA4 at room temperature

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great!, I had no idea about this. I though I needed all that stuff.

Are there any good guides around? I use those ilford PDF guides to learn black and white...

JoJo said:

Colour safelights using Sodium vapour lamps will not work with a footswitch, because they need a 5 minute heat-up period.
So this must be an LED based lamp.

Joachim

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Good point. I use a Jobo Maxilux which looks like an LED device and has settings for colour and B&W. I found it on eBay for about £15.

FujiLove said:

Good point. I use a Jobo Maxilux which looks like an LED device and has settings for colour and B&W. I found it on eBay for about £15.

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I have one. Don't shine it directly onto the paper. But if you put it on a table shining onto a wall for indirect lighting at least 4 - 5 feet from your paper it should be ok. Test it as you would black and white.

NOTE: This is based on my best guess. I have not tested my Maxilux with RA4 yet. When I used to print RA4 I used my Osram Duka 50 mounted on the wall right under a white ceiling, bounced off the ceiling. THAT was tested safe. I expect the Maxilux will be if used carefully but again, don't know.

My work was also with the Kodak Supra paper of the mid 90s. I'm not sure if today's papers are sufficiently faster to alter that result with the Duka 50. I'll find out when I can get back to color.

RA4 is fast paper. VERY VERY fast paper. Your exposure times will be short compared to black and white, sometimes inconveniently short.

Roger Cole said:

I have one. Don't shine it directly onto the paper. But if you put it on a table shining onto a wall for indirect lighting at least 4 - 5 feet from your paper it should be ok. Test it as you would black and white.

NOTE: This is based on my best guess. I have not tested my Maxilux with RA4 yet. When I used to print RA4 I used my Osram Duka 50 mounted on the wall right under a white ceiling, bounced off the ceiling. THAT was tested safe. I expect the Maxilux will be if used carefully but again, don't know.

My work was also with the Kodak Supra paper of the mid 90s. I'm not sure if today's papers are sufficiently faster to alter that result with the Duka 50. I'll find out when I can get back to color.

RA4 is fast paper. VERY VERY fast paper. Your exposure times will be short compared to black and white, sometimes inconveniently short.

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I have my Minilux on the floor, about four feet (diagonally) away from the easel. The easel sits about two foot off the floor (my darkroom is a bathroom...my enlarger is on the bath). I have the Minilux pointed away from the easel towards a light painted door to reflect the light. It seems incredibly dim the first time it's switched on, but it's plenty of light to move the paper around safely after my eyes have gotten used to the dark. I usually sit for a minute or two in the complete dark to allow my vision to stabilise.

I reckon each sheet of paper receives about 30 seconds of illumination from the safelight in five bursts as it's moved from easel to tank and between the four slots. I've never seen any hint of fogging with Fuji Crystal Archive paper, but I haven't tried longer exposures to see where the safelight starts to affect the paper. I know I should do that, and I know I could have the light on much longer if I tested it, but to be honest I have a nice routine worked out with my foot-switch so I can't really be bothered!

This thread reminds me that I really need to get my darkroom set up again. It's been a lovely, clean bright bathroom since our Christmas visitors arrived. It's about time to annoy the missus and turn it back into my dingy photo cave

Regarding those colour filters - can I use those as black and white multi grade filters too?

tomfrh said:

Regarding those colour filters - can I use those as black and white multi grade filters too?

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Not productively.

Multigrade papers adjust their contrast according to how much green and blue light they are exposed to. They are blind to red.

Colour papers are sensitive to all three - red, blue and green.

You can use the magenta and yellow filters to control contrast with multigrade papers. The magenta filters block green and pass blue, while the yellow filters block blue and pass green. The red passed by each is not a factor. You control contrast by exposing with different combinations.