Colour neg development - disaster!

[pentaxuser]

My worst nightmare happened tonight. I developed two films together and got nothing. Not even a trace of development. Both films were a uniform transparent brown from end to end rather like the unexposed end of the film that are normal after dev and blix. There wasn't the usual very dark brown colour for that section which is exposed to the light before development and no frame numbers or make of film. In this case it was Fuji Superia Extra 400

I have never had this happen before so have no means of knowing what a film should look like when the developer totally dies but I assume that normally if the developer is OK but the film remains unexposed when processed then at least the frame numbers and film name shows up? Hence my assumption that the developer was useless.

So am I right in assuming that the developer has totally died to reproduce the effect above?

This developer was last used in early July and was fine. I had used Tetenal Protectan to try and preserve the remaining developer.

It was Paterson's photocolor and had been chosen because it contains only 500mm of developer. I knew that my film throughput was such that bigger kits were all likely to exhaust before I could use the kit. I had thought that Paterson's might last long enough.

The problem is that the Paterson instructions make no mention of how long the developer lasts nor what to look to check if it is beginning to exhaust. Unfortunately it doesn't even mention what to look for in terms of a colour change and I couldn't remember what colour it was originally.

It was a light amber/rose wine colour and there was no strange smell or precipitate.

I had thought that Paterson's small kits might be the answer to the problem of wasting chemicals but I now think not. Paterson has apparently lost its colour chemical supplier so in that sense the problem I have described will disappear as stocks disappear.

Anyway some questions. Has anyone had similar problems with Paterson's photocolor?

More importantly is there anyway to test developer and or blix before risking a film? Or is it simply a case of taking no chances and throwing chemicals away by the manufacturer's recommended life and just accepting waste if you are a low user, assuming of course that there is a recommendation from the manufacturer.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I get round this issue of wasting chemicals and never knowing whether what I am using will do the job?

The problem with C-41 developer is that if it is useless then you have wasted a whole film whereas with RA4 at least you only waste a print.

At least with digi's the exposures do not disappear in the tank. Yes that's how p****ed off I feel tonight having lost 48 frames, many of which I can't repeat.

Low volume home processors are poorly provided for except at great expense to themselves. It is not much wonder that home colour processors are a dying breed and digis and inkjets rule the roost.

pentaxuser

 

[srs5694]

My worst nightmare happened tonight. I developed two films together and got nothing. Not even a trace of development.
...
So am I right in assuming that the developer has totally died to reproduce the effect above?

That's what it sounds like to me, but I can't say so with authority; I've never had this happen to me. Another possibility is that you goofed and ran the film through the blix (assuming you used Paterson's blix as well as their developer) before the developer.

This developer was last used in early July and was fine. I had used Tetenal Protectan to try and preserve the remaining developer.

Was the developer stored in undiluted form, or did you dilute it and store the diluted version? If the latter, I'd expect that would speed deterioration. Early July to late September (close to three months) is a long time for diluted C-41 developer to sit unused.

Also, does your bottle have an expiration date on it? The Paterson Photocolor bottles I've bought all have stickers with expiration dates. You might want to check that.

It was a light amber/rose wine colour and there was no strange smell or precipitate.

That sounds right for good Paterson Photocolor developer. I've used it when it's started to turn brownish (but well shy of cola-colored) with success. Your color observation increases the probability of a mixup in processing order in my mind, but of course you'll have to judge that likelihood for yourself, and I'll take your word for it if you're positive you didn't err in processing order or other details.

More importantly is there anyway to test developer and or blix before risking a film? Or is it simply a case of taking no chances and throwing chemicals away by the manufacturer's recommended life and just accepting waste if you are a low user, assuming of course that there is a recommendation from the manufacturer.

A snip test would verify basic developer activity: Drop a small piece of film (the leader you cut off, say) into the developer and see if it darkens. If not, the developer's completely bad. This test won't detect more subtle problems, though; I'd expect even weak developer to pass this test, but it might produce thin negatives.

Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I get round this issue of wasting chemicals and never knowing whether what I am using will do the job?

I've got two suggestions:

• Mix it yourself -- You can find formulas on the Web for C-41 developers. (Some examples: one, two, three, four.) I've only used #4 (NCF-41, an unusual divided developer), with mixed results. The first three are more conventional single-bath (for the developer; more for bleach, fix, and stabilizer) C-41 formulas. I'm sure PE will say they all deviate from the official Kodak C-41, but then so does Paterson's chemistry. Which works better is unknown to me, except as noted below. In any event, if you mix it yourself from scratch, you can do it in small batches, which should minimize the chance of it going bad before you can use it, at the cost of greater hassle. Of course, you can still use commercial bleaches and fixers (or blixes) with your home-made developer if you like. Separate bleaches and fixers shouldn't go bad very quickly.
• Use minilab processing -- You can hand your film over to a minilab to have them process it. If you can find one that will develop only, the cost shouldn't be much higher than that of doing it yourself, and you'll then be able to scan it or print it yourself, if that's what you prefer.

Personally, I've got one bottle of Paterson Photocolor II left. After that's gone, I'll either switch to Kodak or start mixing my own from one of the conventional formulas (#1-3 above) -- NCF-41 (link #4) sometimes works well, but sometimes it produces thin negatives, in my experience. FWIW, the claim of NCF-41 is that it has a very long shelf life, but I can't verify this claim. I've been using Kodak's bleach and fix with my Paterson developer of late; I find that works better than Paterson's blix.

 

[Nick Zentena]

I mix my own C-41 developer for basically this reason. That and making up wierd amounts. The formulas I use are at:

http://www.bonavolta.ch/hobby/en/photo/c41_ra4_chemicals.htm

I don't bother with making up fix and bleach. Both keep quite a while. Plus if the bleach is bad I'm fairly sure you can just redo it if you don't wait too long. Just rebleach and refix.

 

[Nick Zentena]

One more thing. If you're going to use kits then batch process. Throw the film in the freezer until you have enough rolls to use up the kit. Not great if you have important rush stuff but better then running a roll today. One a couple days later etc

 

[srs5694]

A quick note: The link that Nick provided is to a page with the same formulas as my link #1. The text appears to be identical (or nearly so; I haven't checked every word), aside from some introductory text, but the formatting is a bit better on Nick's link, IMHO.

 

[Dave Parker]

Three months in my experiance is getting a little bit long, but I would still expect to see some form of development in the film, it sounds as if something in your processing flow went wrong, as SR and Nick have both noted the only way to ensure your getting the volumes you need is to mix your own formulas, which really is not to hard..but again, it sounds like somethere in the flow of things went wrong..

Dave

 

[hka]

pentaxuser,
Try the Amaloco MonoNegacolr K54 Kit. Than you have 4x0,5 liter of dev and Blix. Using this kit you can mix any amount of dev or blix you want. I mostly use a half bottle of dev ie. 25cc and mix it up to 250 cc of dev-solution. Develop 2 films in it and throw it away. Undiluted chems are lasting for years without any problem.

Oeps I didn't notice that you probably can't bye it in the UK...

 

[cmichael]

Photocolor II Shelf Life

FWIW, I contacted Photocolor several years ago (2002) regarding the shelf life of their C41 developer. Here was the response I received:

Photocolor II is produced as an easy mix C41 developer to be mixed and used within 10 to 14 days of mixing. The life can be extended by storage in full glass bottles with efective sealing caps. The un-mixed concentrate will keep for up to six months in part filled tightly capped bottles. We have found protective sprays fairly ineffective with these types of developer. My suggestion is that you only mix the volume of developer required in a two week period.​

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks for all the replies so far. As at least one of you has pointed out, it's the old "across the Atlantic" problem. I have never heard of or seen Amaloco MonoNegacolr K54. Sounds like a good bet if I could get hold of it.

Mixing it myself is a possibility provided I can get the chems listed which I suspect will not be easy( maybe impossible) in the U.K.

I know I didn't mix up the order of the chems and I only mixed the concentrate a short while before using it. Only long enough for it to get up to correct temp in the Jobo processor. It may have been that the dev was fine in early July as it was then about 3 months old but completely exhausted almost three months later but seems unlikely based on others's replies.

If I am right then based on what someone has said about Paterson Photocolor it would seem that its retaining its original colour is no guide at all.

Having read these replies and thought a little more about it then the other
explanation which would totally fit the result is that I had in fact used all the concentrate in July when mixing for my last film. Then for some reason which I cannot explain I did not then dump but put back into the bottle in ready to use form. Then 3 months later I assume this dilute 3 months old dev to be concentrate and proceed to dilute even more. So now I am using a twice diluted dev which is nearly 3 months old. That could explain why there wasn't even the faintest of development.

Against this however is: why would I keep it knowing that my next film development is weeks away and why not order another bottle if I was then out of dev?

A total mental aberration? Sadly it does seem to fit.

Anyone know of any long lasting kits to prevent the development of senile dementia?

I must be getting over it. I couldn't have joked about it last night to save my life.

Thanks all

pentaxuser

 

[srs5694]

Mixing it myself is a possibility provided I can get the chems listed which I suspect will not be easy( maybe impossible) in the U.K.

According to the last post of (there was a url link here which no longer exists) (which is very informative itself), the Canadian Dead Link Removed will ship to the UK. You'll probably pay through the nose for shipping, but that might be acceptable if you can find local suppliers for most ingredients and just need one or two to be shipped overseas.

 

[Nick Zentena]

If you only make the colour developer then likely the only thing you'll need to order is CD-4. Maybe also the Hydroxylamine Sulfate. The other stuff you may already have or any darkroom suplier should stock. 500 grams of CD-4 will do a lot of film.

Then buy a jug of bleach and a jug of fix. Don't mix them into blix. Run the process bleach and then fix.

 

[pentaxuser]

srs5694. It doesn't look very good. I went throught the thread mentioned. It hardly filled me with confidence that finding, mixing and ensuring quality is straightforward. PE's posts were particularly depressing about achieving quality.

Frankly I am not looking to learn about the chemistry or experiment I am looking to be able to ensure consistency in every film I develop. It's a simple means to an end for me. To date with at least 3 different commercial developers I have been able to do ensure consistency in terms of the negs I produce. If I couldn't do that relatively simply with home mixing then it just wouldn't be worth it.

Equally the problem with shipping from JD Photochem seems to be cost which is hardly surprising and the time penalty. My guess is that adding these costs into the equation probably means that wasting commercial developer is no more expensive.

So thanks for all your contributions but sadly my conclusions remain much as they were last night which is that the home colour processor enthusiast is badly provided for in the UK.

I can only hope that my aberration theory(see my second post) is correct which is the only light at the end of the tunnel. If it isn't then I can either give up colour processing or put up with the hidden costs of waste to avoid any repeat of last night's disaster.

It's sad

pentaxuser

 

[OldBikerPete]

I am an analytical chemist by training and I formulate my own developers and develop C-41 negs.
I am not so sure that your problem is related to the developer. If it is the developer which has gone wrong then it has somehow become so over-active that it develops the base fog of the film to Dmax so that that all other detail is obscured. I cannot think how such a massive change in reactivity could be achieved. I would also expect that any change on aging of developer would be in the other direction.
If you are using a blix then (as PE has frequently pointed out) this is an unstable mixture and I think that it is likely that it is this step which has failed.
If this is so then your films may possibly be retrievable by
repeat (separate) bleaching and fixing - this is a long shot
but worth a try.
With regard to formulation. I am in the same boat as you. I have small numbers of frames to develop infrequently and it is becoming exhorbitantly expensive to buy sheet film processing or ready-mixed chemistry in Australia. So
I bought chemicals of JD Photochem and had them shipped surface freight. It took 10 weeks to get here and the shipping costs about as much as the chemicals but even then, developer costs less than 5% of what commercial processing costs here and I believe I do a better job.

 

[srs5694]

Concerning the thread to which I linked earlier, please keep in mind that PE is a retired Kodak chemist. As such, he's used to dealing with strict standards of commercial quality control with products that will be used in a variety of conditions. As a low-volume (presumably hobbyist) user, you've got a different set of priorities. You can be sure to mix everything with distilled water, for instance, if that will help you achieve consistent quality. You might not care about a subtle color shift that can be measured with laboratory instruments but that will be barely visible in finished prints. And so on. I certainly respect PE's knowledge and expertise, but I do think the perspective in some of his posts isn't a good match to what many of us want to do.

Another consideration: If you're running into consistency problems because you develop too few rolls of film, resulting in developer going bad, then trading off some quality by using a home-made developer may be a net plus. Such a trade-off will enable you to mix the developer fresh for each developing session and therefore avoid worse problems with your second and subsequent rolls because the developer has gone bad.

If you can find even a small amount of the required chemicals locally, I'd say it'd be worth it to mix up a batch yourself just to check it out. If you like the results, go ahead and order more raw chemicals, even if you've got to wait 10 weeks for shipment from JD Photochem, as OldBikerPete did. (England's closer to Canada than Australia, though, so with luck you won't have to wait quite that long.) Perhaps you can hook up with somebody else in England to get a bit of CD4 and/or to split an order from an overseas supplier, if that's what it takes.

As to costs, I've got a costs spreadsheet. (The link is to a zip file containing the original OpenOffice.org spreadsheet file and a Microsoft Excel export of that file.) In the US, home-made C41-style developers typically cost about $0.50/roll, assuming one-shot use, whereas Kodak's Flexicolor C41 developer costs about $1.00/roll, again assuming one-shot use (and no wasted developer). That gives a fair amount of wiggle room for shipping costs before the mix-it-yourself approach will result in higher costs than a commercial developer (or at least, than Kodak's). You'll need to research local costs and plug them into the spreadsheet (or crunch the numbers yourself) if you want to be sure of what each approach will cost you.

Failing a local supplier of small quantities of commercial developer or going the mix-it-yourself route, as I opined in my first post to this thread, your best bet is probably to take your film to a commercial photofinisher. If you like, you can order development only (no prints) and make prints yourself, at least assuming you can find RA-4 paper and chemicals. In terms of cost, develop-only commercial processing is likely to be about the same as doing it yourself, so this is certainly cost-effective.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have kept genuine C41 for over 3 months with no protective air blanket and over 6 months with a nitrogen blanket.

To check developer, dip the end of a 35mm roll in at RT and let it stand for about 20 mins. It should turn black.

If there are no edge markings on Kodak or Fuji film, then the developer is shot. Kodak chemistry is designed for a shelf life of about 6 weeks unused with no air blanket over it, but it can keep for 3 months or so (about 12 weeks).

PE

 

[pentaxuser]

To check developer, dip the end of a 35mm roll in at RT and let it stand for about 20 mins. It should turn black.
Thanks PE. Yes I think you are right about the dev being shot. If i am right about my mental aberration cause then I am not surprised.

What's RT? Is this simply dipping the exposed leader end of the film into the developer?

pentaxuser

 

[Nick Zentena]

Room Temperture

 

[Photo Engineer]

If there are no edge markings and the film is orange in color, then the developer is dead.

If there are no edge markings and the film is black then the film has been fogged or developed to completion.

If there are edge markings and no images whatsoever, then the film was unexposed and development was probably normal (depending on the density of the edge markings).

I have routinely found that other brand solutions go bad very quickly even in the concentrated unmixed form. Recently, I bought a non-Kodak or Fuji brand of developer, and found when I went to mix it that the contents were spoiled. In that case, I found a small puncture in one of the bottles that was leaking into the packing case. I have always gotten less robust results or less optimum results from these off brand developers.

It is probably wiser to hand mix than it is to buy these off brands. But, CD4 does not keep on the shelf forever, even as a solid. It will spoil, so I would not order 500 g for normal use. I would order more like 25 g. That will mix about 5 liters of developer that should last about 6 - 12 weeks. The 500 g bottle will mix about 100 L (IIRC).

You should have a pH meter to do the job right, and you don't need to use distilled water. I never do.

The best bet is to buy Kodak or Fuji developers.

PE

 

[srs5694]

Given that Pentaxuser went over two months without developing a single roll of C41 film, I'd say that mixing 5 liters of C41 developer, to last 1.5-3 months, is not a good option. What, PE, would you say the dry-storage life of CD4 is? Surely it's more than 1.5-3 months. Are there steps that could be taken to extend that life? (Say, freezing it?) Since Pentaxuser might have to order it from abroad, knowing its storage life and being able to keep it in dry form for as long as possible would likely be real benefits for him. (I'm interested for myself, too, but it's not as critical for me since I'm in the US and so have multiple sources of supply.)

 

[Photo Engineer]

I honestly don't know the storage life of CD4. We went through 25 KG drums of it so fast that it never sat on the shelf very long. I would guess about 1 year - 2 years.

But remember, genuine Kodak and Fuji developers, mixed, will last for over 2 months in a sealed container with a nitrogen blanket. IDK about those other developers, but we seem to have some evidence that they don't keep very well...... Right?

PE

 

[Nick Zentena]

IIRC the Fuji website lists how long closed concentrate lasts. It's quite a while. I know my CD-4 is more then 1 year old and still kicking. But the reason to order the bigger size is the relative saving. My supplier charges:

$18 for a 1/4 pound
$48 for a pound.

Shipping costs are going to be pretty similar. 1 lb isn't so heavy that shipping is a big issue.

Once you tack on the shipping costs to the UK for 1/4 pound I bet he'd be better off just buy premade and dumping it 1/2 used.

 

[OldBikerPete]

I wouldn't go making too many assumptions as to the cost of chemistry outside USA. The last time I bought a 1/2 litre kit (Agfa 70 IIRC and that was a while ago) it cost me over AU$55. That's just enough to develop 12 off 5x4 sheets (to achieve this in a JOBO tank you have to use about 300 ml of developer for the first 6 sheets and then re-use 100ml of used developer with the other 200ml of unused developer for the second six sheets) and commercial processing costs AU$4.90 per sheet.

 

[Mick Fagan]

I have three containers of CD4 in my darkroom.

The first one was purchased 11/09/1990, I opened it on the 03/02/1991. I finished that 250g bottle, on 06/10/1995.

The second 250g container was opened on 31/12/1995 I used that through until it was emptied in 03/2001.

I am currently using the last 250g container which I purchased on the 29/04/1992 and opened on 06/06/2001.

Obviously I use this ingredient only when needed and I only mix up the exact amount of developer required. This does of course save one money in the long run.

However the object of this is to show that some chemicals seem to have an almost infinite shelf life if kept away from water. I know almost nothing about chemistry, except what I read in photographic journals and a few photographic books dedicated to developing.

Chemist friends told me that the shelf life of some chemicals is infinite, whilst most chemicals for photographic purposes should have a shelf life of 10 to 15 years and still be alright, maybe!

My own experience with B&W chemicals is that they last a very, very long time. Some of the chemicals I am still using weekly, I purchased over 25 years ago in bulk, to save money.

Obviously with inflation, I am so far in front, it is unbelievable!

With colour chemistry I didn't think it would be that different, it appears that I have been reasonably correct in my assumption.

As I'm using 1992 prices for all of my colour chemistry, my costings are quite low. In fact it costs me 1.39 Euro, to mix up 1 litre of C41 developer.

If you think you'll be in colour for the long run, which I take to be at least 5 years, then careful consideration of costs, should also include mixing chemicals yourself, as opposed to purchasing off the shelf kits.

There are various formulae around for C41, technically I'm sure they are not exactly correct, but the formula I settled on, has worked for me since 1991.

I have developed various C41 films from Fuji, Agfa and Kodak with almost no shift in colour values for printing on Kodak paper. Agfa paper seemed to be stable as well, recently I have started using Fuji paper and whilst I like the colour palette, I don't like the thinness of the support, very easy to damage or crinkle.

Mick.

 

[Fotohuis]

Pentaxuser: Try to get that Amaloco mononegacolor kit K54. It works (and always works!) in a practical way. Even when you go over the expiration time for the working solution you will get a picture however then some color shifting and high contrast which is always better than nothing.

Fotospeed in UK should get it for you.
The kit is very practical in use and one of the best solutions when having a not too high amount of C41 films. You can do 4X6 films with the kit and as told the C41 developer is divided in 4 small glass bottles for long lifetime.

best regards,

Robert

 

[pentaxuser]

Pentaxuser: Try to get that Amaloco mononegacolor kit K54. It works (and always works!) in a practical way. Even when you go over the expiration time for the working solution you will get a picture however then some color shifting and high contrast which is always better than nothing.

Fotospeed in UK should get it for you.
The kit is very practical in use and one of the best solutions when having a not too high amount of C41 films. You can do 4X6 films with the kit and as told the C41 developer is divided in 4 small glass bottles for long lifetime.

best regards,

Robert

Thanks. I had thought this thread had died so it was nice to see another suggestion. Interestingly enough I was looking at the Fotospeed site last night and noticed that while RA4 chemistry was still available, the item for C41 which was listed as PKC41 Neg Film was classified as DELISTED.

I wonder: Is this the Fotospeed reference for the Amaloco kit you mention? In which case it looks as if Fotospeed have stopped supplying C41 or it may simply be the case that Fotospeed have stopped supplying their own C41 and will obtain the Amaloco should anyone contact them about what alternatives it can supply.

It seems strange that it should delist its C41 chemistry but be prepared to obtain Amaloco. I intend to speak to them so I'll ask about this reference and about Amaloco as well.

pentaxuser