Colour carbon printing workflow (no computers!)

laroygreen · Oct 7, 2021

Hi everyone.

Just surveying the landscape of doing colour carbon transfer printing without using a computer or inkjet printer. Due to local constraints, I can only import roll film and purchase x-ray film locally. My idea is to enlarge my MF negatives to a X-ray sheet color separation inter-positives, then to x-ray sheet inter-negatives that would then be used for carbon printing. My questions:

Is this workflow possible (putting other concerns like effort, quality, etc. aside - I can wrestle with those later)?
Am I missing any steps?
Is there a book out there I can get to help me with this process?

colour negative => x-ray separation positive (x3) => x-ray negatives (x3) => sensitized tissues (x3) => temporary support => final support

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 7, 2021

Yes, it is possible. It's a LOT of work, but worth it if you stick to it. I preferred the flexibility that digi negs provide. I've done it with X-ray film as internegative. I presume you'll be working with black and white with filtration? Black and white with red, green, blue filters was the way that I worked. Then you'll need a reliable way to register your separation negatives. By the way, I had to enlarge or contact print my incamera negatives first, then take that positive and contact print to get a negative. I never tried the reversal process. The only books that I am aware of are ones that I contributed to, but I believe they mainly deal with digi negs. If you look around, you should be able to find something. Personally, I stopped making colour carbon prints. I prefer monochrome. For colour work, I've been hooked on tri-colour gum. Good luck and have fun!

laroygreen · Oct 7, 2021

Thank you Andrew. If I understand correctly:

I imagine this is how it would work - I would use filters to create the enlarged separation positive on x-ray film (cyan, magenta & yellow), contact print those positives with x-ray to get negative (red, green, blue) then use those to expose the sensitized tissue (cyan, magenta & yellow). For now I am ignoring making separations for highlights, shadows, colour balance, etc. and the varying sensitivity of x-ray film to different light wavelengths. I am learning this as I type (I've been reading the darkroom handbook)!
I will have a vacuum / pin registration system to keep everything registered.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 7, 2021

No filters required to make the large separation negatives. You would use the filters in the field, when you exposing the subject. It's tricky if there is subject motion such as leaves, water, clouds, people, or even shadows, as the sun moves. Camera has to be on a tripod, too

laroygreen · Oct 8, 2021

Thanks Andrew. I have a lot more reading to do to fully understand the process and controls, but for now, I am happy to have confirmation of my general plan.

Donald Qualls · Oct 8, 2021

Alternately, you could do the field exposure with color, then use filters to make contact separation positives on panchro film (along with a panchro full spectrum positive for the eventual black layer, if you decide you'll need such), which you then enlarge onto something like X-ray to get final size separation negatives. If you include registration marks outside the image area, it will probably help a lot with layer alignment.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 8, 2021

A black layer isn't really necessary.

Donald Qualls · Oct 8, 2021

Andrew O'Neill said:
A black layer isn't really necessary.

I won't argue. I've seen more tricolor gum than tricolor carbon, and gum usually does need one...

laroygreen · Oct 8, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Alternately, you could do the field exposure with color, then use filters to make contact separation positives on panchro film (along with a panchro full spectrum positive for the eventual black layer, if you decide you'll need such), which you then enlarge onto something like X-ray to get final size separation negatives. If you include registration marks outside the image area, it will probably help a lot with layer alignment.

Thank you Donald, so if I understand correctly, if I shoot 6x7 colour, I then make 6x7 contact separation negatives to panchro film and then enlarge those to x-ray? If so that actually sounds like a very good option as well!

Donald Qualls · Oct 8, 2021

Yep, that should work. If your 6x7 is chromes, you'll have an extra step in there to get back to a negative at the enlarged size, and if it's C-41 you'll have to filter to compensate for the orange mask, but that's the basic idea. Since the mask on C-41 has an imagewise component for (IIRC) the cyan layer, you may also observe some crossover, so I'd suggest shooting Ektachrome or Velvia/Provia and adding an extra step to wind up with negatives.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 8, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
I won't argue. I've seen more tricolor gum than tricolor carbon, and gum usually does need one...

I've never bothered with a black layer for either. I've got so many layers, it's seems to be black enough

laroygreen · Oct 8, 2021

Thank you so much for all the help! I feel a lot more confident in moving to the next step .

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 8, 2021

laroygreen said:
Thank you so much for all the help! I feel a lot more confident in moving to the next step .

Make sure you keep us posted on your progress. Would love to see images!

sasah zib · Oct 8, 2021

if you begin with a CN or CP, your sep stage must record the colors you want to keep. Usually this means a PANchromatic film. Successive, intermediate stages can be ortho or whatever gets you to your goal. Direct sep is the easiest; you get a separated negative out of the first step. If that film doesn't block UV(not Kodak T-Max 100), then it can be contacted to sensitive surface for a first pass of your process.

I'd expect the choice of pigments and the mechanicals of tissues making etc are more challenging.
If your first steps don't capture it, you do without OR draw it in. A great advantage of assembly is you can keep building after as many passes as you want. The disadvantage of pigments is: they cover over; stack high.

K was for Key(line) .. became BlacK -- key could /was other colors long ago.

MOST importantly: try it. you won't blowup, nor become homeless. More likely, you will know something, something more than those of us who didn't try the 'xray' film.You will know what it looks like.

Snowfire · Oct 8, 2021

Is this the same process as "color carbro?"

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 8, 2021

Snowfire said:
Is this the same process as "color carbro?"

Similar but different. Carbro is combining carbon pigments and silver bromide print.

koraks · Oct 16, 2021

laroygreen said:
I would use filters to create the enlarged separation positive on x-ray film (cyan, magenta & yellow)

Please note that you can NOT make separations from color film onto xray film, since xray film is not panchromatic. For this reason, heed what @Donald Qualls suggested and use panchromatic material for the separations. Xray could be used for the enlarged internegatives.

Looking forward to the outcomes of this experiment a couple of months/years down the line. I've mused about it myself, but based on my (limited) experience with carbon printing I decided that color carbon would be WAY beyond my level of patience and dedication to pull off. I'd have to work on it for about a year FULL TIME to get anywhere with it, I estimate.

sasah zib · Oct 19, 2021

laroygreen: several years ago (2015) Calvin Grier began his efforts. He was informed by highcounts of the problems (they hadn't solved) The biggest, first problem is one of energy, commitment. In a few years he has become THE master of Color Carbon prints.
From his site:
Color carbon prints are usually made with cyan, magenta, yellow and black pigments, but most prints also incorporate an iron oxide layer of pigment for greater subtly in skin tones and landscapes. Orange, green, red, or violet pigments can also be used to increase the gamut.

The Wet Print Studios - Home Page | Thewetprint.com

https://thewetprint.com/product-category/materials/

https://www.instagram.com/thewetprint/?hl=en

He has a text keyed to imagesetter solutions; somewhere, he posted his continuous tone print method. IIRC he did it as part of a workshop with someone shooting direct negatives. Since it doesn't appear in goog search, I assume it wasn't meant for publication.

Anyone wishing to make CCs should begin with his information. His workshops are booked well over a year in advance.
Follow his IG -- maybe reachout to him directly. He could easily take interest in your goal enough to solve it, making it a part of his workshop/service.

laroygreen · Oct 19, 2021

Thank you for the input. It will definitely be valuable information as I take baby steps. Speaking purely from my imagination, I don't have an issue spending weeks to get a single print - people like me need every constraint imaginable to actually take the time to improve and think about what they are doing.

DREW WILEY · Oct 19, 2021

Can it be done without computer assistance? Well, that was the ONLY way it was done for an entire century beforehand, so the answer would obviously be, yes. And yes, there are numerous older references giving details, including a relatively modern book by Luis Nadeau, "Modern Carbon Printing" - that is, "modern" just a few decades ago. But many films and so forth have changed, and modifications in workflow are inevitable. I've personally seen a fair amount of even color carbon printing which was superbly done in the latter 20th C via in-camera or in-darkroom means only, with no scanner or computer assistance whatsoever. But it took them a lot of experimentation and practice.

You can start from either in-camera separations on large format sheet film, or a transparency original of any size, either contacted or projected onto pan film separations. With some luck and the right film, like FP4 or TMY400, within six months or so of hard work learning how to get consistently balanced color separations, you might finally begin to begin. Starting with color neg film originals involves a lot of secondary headaches which are hypothetically feasible (and have been mastered by a few), but more likely will drive the average practitioner either insane or bankrupt first. Whatever your path, invest in a b&w transmission densitometer and calibrated Stouffer step wedge at the least, or else standardizing color separations will turn hellish. But it was once obviously done without even that.

Gum and casein are easier and much more common than tri or quad carbon, but have an entirely different look. Carbro is very rare now due to a lack of appropriate specialized bromide papers. You can't use ordinary photo papers. Pigment selection is a whole topic unto itself.

Colour carbon printing workflow (no computers!)

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