Color printing like lith?

baachitraka · Oct 21, 2016

https://www.google.de/search?q=Max+...&ved=0ahUKEwjntN204-vPAhWD0xQKHcB9A8sQiR4IwAE

I was looking some paintings of Max Slevogt and wonder whether is it possible to make a color print like lith print?

Rudeofus · Oct 21, 2016

Right away: a direct translation of lith development into color development is not possible. In B&W lith development you rely on oxidized Hydroquinone not getting scavenged by Sulfite (for lack of it), and oxidized Hydroquinone then autocatalyzing its development reaction. In color development oxidized PPD gets scavenged by couplers embedded in film. You could try other techniques for boosting contrast: push development, or Hydrogen Peroxide added to color developer.

ic-racer · Oct 21, 2016

Coloring B&W prints is almost as old as photography itself, and lith prints would be no different. Use paint or pencil on the surface of the paper. Check out photographers like Kate Breakey and Kathy Vargus.

dE fENDER · Oct 21, 2016

I'm sure that theoretically color lith print is possible, but it will be difficult and expensive. You'll have 3 options to start experiments with:

1. Ilfochrome. First developer is bw, you'll have to exchange original with hq. Sensitivity of this paper is quite low, but it's far more sensitive to yellow-green light than ra-4. So you have to predict time when infection will start, and turn on (a REALLY slow) light about the time for a very small periods of time. Fresh (almost) paper and chemistry is still available.
2. R-3. First developer is bw too. So it will be possible to use hq instead. But you'll have to find working paper (PE said that R-3 paper is quite short-living) and recreate original chemistry (MSDS is available - it seems that it is not very difficult and almost the same as ra-4).
3. RA-4 reversal. First developer - yes, it's bw again. Will have incorrect gamma but if you want some lomography with lith specialities - it should suit. But the sensitivity is really high and you'll have to predict infection time very precisely. Visual control should be made with flashes of yellow-green light with slow intensity.

baachitraka · Oct 21, 2016

ic-racer said:
Coloring B&W prints is almost as old as photography itself, and lith prints would be no different. Use paint or pencil on the surface of the paper. Check out photographers like Kate Breakey and Kathy Vargus.

I looking to print a color negative, like lith in black & white.

dE fENDER · Oct 21, 2016

baachitraka said:
I looking to print a color negative, like lith in black & white.

It will be easier to start with slide film. In case of negative you'll have to make additional positive copy on technical film.

ic-racer · Nov 7, 2016

A color negative should be a fine source material for B&W lith printing. If you used a color slide your B&W lith print would be a negative. Is that what you want?
This is an example of what is commonly referred to as a "Lith Print." Are we discussing the same thing?

baachitraka · Nov 7, 2016

Currently Town's art gallery is exhibiting works of 'Max Liebermann' and I was reading a bit about it him and discovered some more artists from the past,

http://de.wahooart.com/@@/8YDJBD-Max-Slevogt-Neukastel,-anzeigen-zu-Leinsweiler

https://www.google.de/search?q=Max+...&ved=0ahUKEwjntN204-vPAhWD0xQKHcB9A8sQiR4IwAE

and wondering whether we do some color lith prints to emulate those paintings. Or better said RA-4 lith prints. ;-)

Ian Grant · Nov 7, 2016

Probably can be done

Astronomers used looping to increase colour depth. you process in a C41 developer and fix No bleach/Blix, then bleach in a rehalogenating bleach and after a wash and brief re-exposure go back through the C41 process,

You can process a Colour film in a B&W dev, bleach and redevelop in a Colour developer and get a colour image, after all that's used slightly differently withnE6 and earlier reversal processes.. The B&W development doesn't destroy teh colour couplers in the film.

HAve a try

Ian

dE fENDER · Nov 7, 2016

ic-racer said:
If you used a color slide your B&W lith print would be a negative. Is that what you want?
This is an example of what is commonly referred to as a "Lith Print." Are we discussing the same thing?

We are discussing possibility to get color lith print. Such as your example, but in color. If you will read the topic again, you'll see the three methods which I advised to try. All of them are reversal and should produce the color positive image. To produce lith print we have to use b/w hydroquinone developer, so if we need the positive color image afterwards we had to use the reversal process. If we had to use reversal process, we need to use slide instead of negative.

Besides, several days ago I got a pack of R-3 paper, perhaps about 1995, but it will produced dense purple fog (as any expired color material) and had been eaten by bacteria so it's totally useless. I tried to get rid of fog by benzotriazole, potassium iodide and developer termperature ~10 C, but it gave nothing and after another portion developing just stopped.

Ian Grant said:
Astronomers used looping to increase colour depth. you process in a C41 developer and fix No bleach/Blix, then bleach in a rehalogenating bleach and after a wash and brief re-exposure go back through the C41 process,

Rehalogenation will give a pushed result, not a lith print. If pushing will give lith result, everybody would use push processing instead of difficult and slow infection development.

Ian Grant · Nov 8, 2016

dE fENDER said:
Rehalogenation will give a pushed result, not a lith print. If pushing will give lith result, everybody would use push processing instead of difficult and slow infection development.

You missed my point, process as a B&W lith print, then bleach and re developer in colour developer.

Ian

dE fENDER · Nov 8, 2016

Ian Grant said:
You missed my point, process as a B&W lith print, then bleach and re developer in colour developer.

It's ra-4 reversal. I advised it in #4 message.

baachitraka · Nov 8, 2016

Ian Grant said:
You missed my point, process as a B&W lith print, then bleach and re developer in colour developer.

Ian

If I understand it correctly,

- Color negative
- Expose the color paper with color enlarger.
- Develop as B+W lith(SE5 lith from Moersch)
- Bleach and re-develop in color developer(This part I have no idea presume they are part of RA-4).

Ian Grant · Nov 8, 2016

baachitraka said:
If I understand it correctly,

- Color negative
- Expose the color paper with color enlarger.
- Develop as B+W lith(SE5 lith from Moersch)
- Bleach and re-develop in color developer(This part I have no idea presume they are part of RA-4).

Yes, however you have a huge problem because colour paper needs handling in the dark or with a very dim indirect dark brown Wratten 10/10H safelight. You'd need a dye desensitiser to work with the Lith dev.

The first bleach would be Potassium Ferricyanide and Potassium Bromide 2gm of each per litre. I think you might find something in older photography books, I seem to remember John Hedgecoe books including special effects with colour films and prints.

Ian

baachitraka · Nov 8, 2016

Sounds too complicated for me to attempt at home.

Stephen Frizza · Nov 8, 2016

The secret to achieving a lith like look in Ra-4 or Ilfochrome colour printing does not lie in the chemical treatment of paper, but rather in careful craftsmanship during printing or even earlier in the colour film processing stage.

ic-racer · Nov 8, 2016

Ok, so I have no idea what is being discussed. Can someone post a scan of a "Color Lith Print" so I know what you are discussing?

Color printing like lith?

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