Color Negative Processing Future???

markwny · Jan 6, 2012

If Kodak goes Chapter 11, what is the future for the color negative process? I know of other sources of chemistry, but what about the film?

Chuck Mintz · Jan 6, 2012

The rumored Kodak filing would allow them to keep operating and, at least for a while, there is little chance that they would stop making anything. Assuming it makes a profit, the film and chemical businesses are worth something to somebody and I would expect that they would be sold to someone who did not bear the huge overhead that Kodak brings. While anything can happen in a bankruptcy, the role of the court is to maximize what the present debtors can get. If I were forced to bet, I would bet on this being good news since a new owner could not make worse marketing decisions than are being made now. But, I would not bet my life savings on that.
Chuck

markbarendt · Jan 6, 2012

Fuji?

benjiboy · Jan 6, 2012

To get me to get my crystal ball out and make a prediction of the future you will first have to "cross my palm with silver" as they say in the trade.

vedmak · Jan 6, 2012

O yes! Maya was right the end of the world came in 2012... May be not, there is plenty of companies in Europe that manufacture film, Fuji, Ilford. With the possible end of Kodak as chemical manufacturer the word of film will not end

DREW WILEY · Jan 6, 2012

There's no long term answer to this, any more than we really know yet what will happen to Kodak's
film manufacturing. It volume falls off significantly, labs won't be able to sustain C41 or E6 processors. But the necessary chemicals have alternate sources, and if Kodak outright drops out
of the color film game, it might just be the incentive for Fuji to get more aggessively back into the
color neg film game, which they certainly have the technical abilitiy to provide. There still seems to
be a healthy overall market for these kinds of films, and having one less competitor might even improve the profitiability outlook for the survivors. But I can't think of anyone other than Fuji or Kodak who has the necessary R&D to mfg professional quality color films. I'd hate to lose Portra or
Ektar in particular, but all I can do for the moment is put a reserve of my favorite Kodak films in the
freezer and wait to see what happens.

Bob-D659 · Jan 6, 2012

Kodak don't make the chemicals, Champion make them under license, Kodak just sells them.

vedmak · Jan 6, 2012

Bob-D659 said:
Kodak don't make the chemicals, Champion make them under license, Kodak just sells them.

right you are, Apple also is not manufacturing ipods, but some obscure company in China, but guess who has the patents...

Rudeofus · Jan 6, 2012

vedmak said:
right you are, Apple also is not manufacturing ipods, but some obscure company in China, but guess who has the patents...

Unlike copyrights, patents will expire before we expire ...

pentaxuser · Jan 6, 2012

I can't speak for commercial colour processing in the U.S. but based on my own observations and anecdotal evidence most mini-labs in the U.K. use Fuji machines and Fuji chemicals and for amateurs there is Tetenal, Digibase and Fuji-Hunt kits.

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Jan 6, 2012

Every Tetenal kit or other kit you get is $$ to them not to Kodak. But they work (kinda). The work alike formulas are out there, but Champion will keep plugging away. There is also Trebla, run by some ex Kodakers who mix up authentic formulas.

C41 and E6 are NOT patented at this time. The final rinse is, but there is a substitute.

PE

markwny · Jan 6, 2012

My biggest concern is that the color negative film might become difficult to obtain. As far as I know, Kodak is the only manufacturer for that. Paper has at least two sources and can be used in the digital photography arena. So it should be around for a while. Unfortunately, I'm analog all the way.

DREW WILEY · Jan 6, 2012

It just doesn't make sense that commercial color neg film would disappear. Analog products are very
alive and well in the form of RA4 papers, and these are still very deliberately designed to be compatibe with traditional enlargement from color negs. Not every lab on the planet can begin to afford the Lightjet or Lambda laser alternatives. The volume and profitability of paper itself would be
adversely affected without a companion film selection. In the short term we're going to have some problems because Kodak was the leader in this film category and Fuji wisely decided not to keep going head to head. But everything could quicky change if Kodak takes a knockout punch.

Rudeofus · Jan 6, 2012

markwny said:
My biggest concern is that the color negative film might become difficult to obtain. As far as I know, Kodak is the only manufacturer for that.

To quote Mark Barent here: "Fuji?"

markwny · Jan 6, 2012

I know Fuji makes color positive transparency film, but I'm not aware of any color negative film that they make.

DREW WILEY · Jan 6, 2012

It wasn't actually that long ago that Fuji directly competed with Kodak with a very wide selection of
color neg films in every format, and alas, with a lot of unnecessary redundancy between pro and
amateur packaging. The products were very high quality, though probably not quite up to Kodak's
latest tweaks with Portra and Ektar. They still make a 160S product in the same market niche as
160 Portra, which can be brought over. But their R&D is apparently healthy and they could probably
fill an empty market niche quite easily if it appears worth their time. If this does happen, I certainly
hope they take a clue from the improvements of Ektar and Portra and make something comparable.
I can't operate on wishful thinking, however, and am currently padding my freezer with the real deal.

markbarendt · Jan 6, 2012

markwny said:
My biggest concern is that the color negative film might become difficult to obtain. As far as I know, Kodak is the only manufacturer for that. Paper has at least two sources and can be used in the digital photography arena. So it should be around for a while. Unfortunately, I'm analog all the way.

:confused:

How about Fuji?

markbarendt · Jan 6, 2012

Dead Link Removed

markwny · Jan 6, 2012

Thanks for the link Mark. Unfortunately, they don't list any 4x5 sheet film though. I normally buy from B&H, but they have listed he Fujicolor sheet film as no longer available. However, I see that East Coast Photo says they have it in stock. Anybody have any experience with them?

newcan1 · Jan 8, 2012

My bet is that Kodak's film making business will continue to exist, under Chinese ownership.

Aristophanes · Jan 8, 2012

newcan1 said:
My bet is that Kodak's film making business will continue to exist, under Chinese ownership.

The factory in Rochester worth anything cannot move, and Kodak folded most of its Chinese operations years ago due to quality control and training issues.

Demand for film is falling faster overseas than in Japan, North America, and Europe because the emerging middle classes in developing nations have bypassed film and went straight to digital. If one looks at Sony sensor sales many emergent middle class have even gone right past dedicated cameras and only purchase and use their cameraphone. The Chinese won't even sell to themselves as their fi, deans market is dwindling fast as well.

DREW WILEY · Jan 9, 2012

You missed the point ... he was surmising a Chinese buyout, not Chinese mfg. Big difference. They're
buying up all kinds of US and Canadian operations at the moment to invest cash surpluses. No way at the moment to really predict the possibility of this, but it does remind me of how Oji of Japan
bought the color division of Ilford and kept Cibachrome alive another decade; and a decade is a long
time for any photographic product in these rapidly changing times. As someone who makes part of
my living using a "crystal ball" to predict the stability or otherwise of mfg corporations, this is one
case where I think everyone's crystal ball will have to be glued back together piece by piece in
hindsight. There are all kinds of hypothetical outcomes, some favorable to film photography, some
not.

PeteZ8 · Jan 9, 2012

markwny said:
Thanks for the link Mark. Unfortunately, they don't list any 4x5 sheet film though. I normally buy from B&H, but they have listed he Fujicolor sheet film as no longer available. However, I see that East Coast Photo says they have it in stock. Anybody have any experience with them?

Wow, I never noticed that, you're right! Nothing in sheet film sizes for color film shown. Perhaps if Kodak film does go bye-bye Fuji will find it profitable enough to restore the sheet film sizes.

PeteZ8 · Jan 9, 2012

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/color_negativefilms/pro_160ns/#specifications

They apparently do make 4x5 and 8x10 in their Fujicolor Pro 160NS, which is their answer to Portra.

thomas l · Jan 9, 2012

If there is no lab, just develop your color negative films by yourself

Color Negative Processing Future???

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