Color management / Epson R2400 issue

[Marco B]

Hi all,

This is going to be a very long posting, sorry for that, but this is an issue that has been bothering for some time and I hope to get some good input here... and I just can't explain it shorter, and also want to avoid people suggesting things I already covered, so here it is:

Although it has taken a few years and lot's of reading of internet articles about the subject, I am now pretty confident I now fully grasp the concept of color management and know how to use it properly.

My monitor, an older CRT, is properly calibrated using a ColorVision Spyder 2. Despite the age of the monitor, the Spyder 2 software's pre-calibration monitor adjustment showed that the RBG channels are perfectly balanced (needed only a minor adjustment) and the actual calibration went well. I am happy with the performance in terms of neutrality of color and checking some websites that had special test images for B&W performance, also showed that the performance in terms of shadow and highlight detail was good. Even deep black tones are acceptably resolved.

In addition, for proper printing on my Epson R2400 printer, I have downloaded all paper manufacturer supplied ICC profiles for my R2400 printer and the selection of papers I have available. This should allow proper printing on the paper's that I bought. So I have ICC profiles for EPSON, Harman, and Ilford paper.

I use official EPSON Ultrachrome K3 inks, so no 3rd party stuff...

Lastly, I posted my own monitor calibration profile onto a special website (unfortunately I have forgotten which one, need to look it up once in my documentation) that offers the capability to create 3D renderings of the profile in a kind of "3D colorspace" and compare them to other (standard) profiles. This showed me that the monitor profile was very close to the sRGB standard profile, as expected of course...

Now for the problem I'm encountering:

Despite having setup my computer well, I consistently find that choosing ICM colormanagement in the printer driver, and printing images using properly set image colorspaces (e.g. AdobeRGB or sRGB) and target colorspace (the downloaded paper ICC profiles), that images come out slightly to dark and to bleak. There is a clear loss of some shadow detail and saturation. The images do not entirely match my monitor display, even though the differences are not that big. Again: I HAVE properly set image colorspace! (AdobeRGB when image in AdobeRGB, sRGB when sRGB).

Also, of course, I HAVE set my proofing properly in Photoshop. That is, chosen the paper profile in the "Proof Setup", set "Rendering intent" to "perceptual" or "relative colorimetric" (I usually setup for both so I can see the effect), chosen "Black point compensation = On" and "Simulate paper color = On".

And of course chosen "Proof Colors" from the "View" menu in Photoshop... and "Gamut warning" on, which did NOT show issues.

I have been investigating this issue quite a lot by doing the following:
- Of course changing rendering intent (perceptual, relative colorimetric and even saturation). Even though small changes, no print fully matched monitor display.
- Trying both printing from Photoshop with "Let Photoshop determine colors", all appropriate settings and colormanagement switched OFF in the Epson R2400 printer driver. Different rendering intents tried...
- Also chosen "Let printer determine color" in Photoshop, switched color management ON in the Epson R2400 driver and chosen appropriate setting.

With "Let printer determine colors", I have also tried the different options in the Epson R2400 printer driver:
- Pure ICM color management with the driver's ICM as the engine. E.g. a typical setting might be:

* Color management: ICM
* ICM mode: driver ICM
* Image profile: AdobeRGB or sRGB depending on image
* Rendering intent: all tried, except absolute colorimetric, as this is generally said not to be suited for photos
* Printer profile: appropriate downloaded ICC profile for chosen paper sort. I have also made sure to set the appropriate paper sort in the drive (e.g.Premium Glossy Photo Paper, if that is what needs to be used with the chosen paper).

- Color management using Epson's own "Color control" option, tried different setting, e.g.:

* Color management: Color control
* Gamma: default 1.8, also tried 2.2 (even darker, contrastier but not good)
* Color mode: Epson Standard, Epson Vivid tried, to no evail

I finally ended up finding that choosing "Let printer determine colors", so not Photoshop, and setting the following settings resulted in the most closely matching print outs:

* Photoshop: Let printer determine colors
* Epson R2400 driver settings:
* Color management: Color control
* Gamma: 1.8
* Color mode: Epson Standard
* Brightness: 0, no adjustment
* Contrast: 0, no adjustment
* Saturation: +2
* Cyan: -2
* Magenta: +1
* Yellow: +2

These last settings resulted both in solving the issue of to dark shadows, and a loss of saturation compared to monitor display.

Now for the final remarks:
I find it frustrating to discover ICM just doesn't deliver. I don't think I am doing something wrong here. ICM was designed to solve these mismatches, and the paper manufacturer's probably have made every effort to produce accurate ICC profiles, so why no match??? :confused: My images do not contain any special "Out of gamut" colors that might contribute to the issue, I do "Proof" properly in Photoshop...

Please note though, that I am perfectly aware that there are limitations to the concept of color management, and that for example printers are generally capable of producing some blue tints that simply can NOT be displayed by ANY regular monitor, no matter how well setup and soft proofing properly. This is just hardware limitation. However, Gamut warning would show that...

I remember reading sometime in a photo magazine that pure ICM managed printing indeed could be unsatisfactory in terms of saturation, but no reason was given there. Any thoughts by anyone of you???

And lastly:

Are there more people running into similar issue and choosing custom settings in the Epson R2400 printer driver (especially the saturation and CMY adjustements) to solve these???

Any more thoughts and inputs from people well versed in color management?

As one last remark: I am running a pretty recent EPSON printer driver version 5.53 of 2007. I recently discovered Epson released an even newer version again (6.5d) for my R2400, but haven't yet installed it. Although I also doubt if the issue is really there... anyway to be as comprehensive as possible...

 

[Greg_E]

All I can tell you is that something is wrong if you are getting better results with the color controls setting than with profiles. It could be that the canned profiles are different enought from your printer that they do not perform properly. The printer driver could have a lot to do with it, depends what Epson did within the driver.

You might want to investigate profiles made for your printer. Maybe try InkjetArt as I'm not really sure who is still making profiles because I haven't kept up with it. I used to do this, but it just wasn't worth the effort for the few people that I would pull in.

 

[P C Headland]

A friend of mine when through a similar, though more subtle version of this, and was slowly driving himself crazy trying to figure out what was going on.

In the end, he bit the bullet and got some custom profiles made for the paper types he uses. Now he is a happy camper again.

As he said, had he got the custom profiles done from the outset, he would have easily saved more than the cost of having them made by not having wasted so much paper, ink and time.

 

[Marco B]

Yes, it may be necessary to have custom profiles made, I will look into that further. In the mean time, correcting in the printer driver settings at least get's me very close, and the differences were not that big to begin with. It's just a minor, but visible, shift in the direction of cool and too dark that I'm compensating for.

 

[houmekemgep]

One quick question

What would be the most important value for color. What would be the priority?

DeltaE?
Delta Luma?
xy Accuracy?

or a good balance of them all, even if values are more offset?

Thank you.

Pitou

 

[L.L.CHEO]

How about the ink hue?
Did your color management software able to do the adjustment in the software?
Mean to adjust the CMYK ink hue to simulate preview?

Than you.

LEON

 

[jeffreyg]

I have an Epson 2200 and have found that I get better results with the Epson default settings than with paper profiles that I have downloaded. (I don't do a tremendous amount of color) I haven't used any of the gadgets to profile my monitor or to build profiles. I have found through experience that whatever looks just right on my monitor needs a slight tweak in contrast to print correctly. I suspect that you can figure out the same for your shadows. For Epson Ultra Premium Glossy I use their glossy setting however, for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag, Innova FibaRrint White Gloss and the new Signature papers I use the bright watercolor setting. I'm using a 1.8 gamma, Adobe RGB but let printer control color for printing.
Trust your eye.

HOME PAGE

 

[Kenneth Lee]

You might find this article helpful.

I use an R2400 and a calibrated workflow. It's critical that your monitor brightness match that of light reflecting off paper in a standard room or office. Otherwise, your "prints will be too dark" because in fact, your monitor is too bright.

 

[Kenneth Lee]

Sorry - I didn't know this thread was so old. I'm new here.

 

[Ian Grant]

Sorry - I didn't know this thread was so old. I'm new here.

I for one Ken am glad you posted, it's very useful seeing your R2400 comments as I've just bought one So thanks.

Ian

 

[I.G.I.]

I for one Ken am glad you posted, it's very useful seeing your R2400 comments as I've just bought one So thanks.

Ian

Congratulations, it's a nice work-horse (or perhaps more apt, a work-pony). If you haven't yet taken this route, do yourself a favour and get custom profiles; or even better, printer profiling hardware/software. Canned profiles and/or printer driver adjustments could be very frustrating, and quickly become very expensive (the 2400 cartridges are small, and run out surprisingly quickly); proper profiling turns out much cheaper.