Color liquid emulsion

Donald Qualls · Sep 23, 2021

MingMingPhoto said:
How did you learn these things?

There was a recent confirmation posted by Matt(?) on one of Mohmad Khatab's threads, as I recall.

Given that this development (yes, by Inoviscoat) is taking place in EU, we can be reasonably sure that the resulting coating process will be environmentally acceptable under EU regulations as well as fulfilling their worker safety requirements -- which bodes well for the long tern viability of both their C-41 (for Lomography?) and ECN-2 products. Not to mention competition is always a good thing, provided only that both competitors don't sink themselves trying to get rid of the other...

MattKing · Sep 23, 2021

MingMingPhoto said:
This website tried to give my computer a virus, are you sure this is it?

Denise Ross (the lightfarm) probably doesn't incorporate the latest and most advanced security protocols into her website - it is very much a labour of love. So it may be that your anti-virus software flags it as a potential problem. .

MattKing · Sep 23, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
There was a recent confirmation posted by Matt(?) on one of Mohmad Khatab's threads, as I recall.

Not me, but I think I recall what you mean.

Donald Qualls · Sep 23, 2021

MattKing said:
Not me, but I think I recall what you mean.

Yeah, a different Matt, the new official ORWO voice here.

Nitrous · Mar 14, 2022

koraks said:
I'm being realistic. That's not a "bad attitude". Your question is anything but simple. Making you believe otherwise would have been irresponsible; I refuse to do this. I'm just putting it as plain and clear as it's ever going to be: you're not going to make a color emulsion at home.

your commitment to honesty and reason notwithstanding, would you not agree that anything that can be done on a large scale can be done on the bench but on a smaller scale? The rate limiting step here, for me is the availability of chemicals. They all appear to be 1) terribly expensive and 2) difficult to source. Perhaps the "banned chemistry" issue might be addressed with health/safety/disposal angle in mind, rather than finding new, as yet unbanned chemistry.

But, in saying this, just to make useful b&w emulsions is a fascinating subject to explore. Honestly, I think the most trivial part of the process is multilayered emulsions. And even that is far from trivial... but given what I've seen in the maker community..... far from outside the scope of... many motivated individuals.

I'm new to this forum (and to retirement) but find these discussions fascinating.
Doug (retired MD but trained as a physical chemist)

Donald Qualls · Mar 14, 2022

There are a couple reasonably practical ways to make color photographs with homemade materials (four, really).

First, if you can make a consistent panchromatic (even orthopanchromatic) emulsion, you can use filtration to produce tri-color images. There are a couple folios on the web of images that were made this way in the 1890s.

Second, it's possible (with lots of experimentation and panchromatic emulsion) to make Autochromes -- these are single-layer plates, developed by reversal, that are exposed and viewed through an integral grid or random array of tricolor filter material. This is 1920s technology.

Third, there is the Lippman Process; the film is exposed through the base, with the emulsion in intimate contact with a highly reflective surface (originally, liquid mercury); interference produces layers of developed silver that then display colors by interference. This invention also dates from the 1890s.

Finally, and oldest, there are examples of color in Daguerreotypes that are thought not to be due to color added after processing; rather, it's believed these are produced by an effect similar to Lippman plates. Daguerreotypes are 1840s tech, though I don't know that color Dags were made back in the day.

pentaxuser · Mar 14, 2022

I wonder if MingMingPhoto ever gave it a try. The whole thread had a flurry of posts for about a week then nothing until 53 mins ago?

pentaxuser

koraks · Mar 14, 2022

Nitrous said:
but given what I've seen in the maker community..... far from outside the scope of... many motivated individuals.

Talk to the people behind the Impossible Project. Or talk to the guys at Innoviscoat. Anything can be done - in theory. But the real world is not a theoretical construct...

Nitrous said:
would you not agree that anything that can be done on a large scale can be done on the bench but on a smaller scale?

Yes and no. Again, in theory, yes. But given your career, I'm sure you're aware of many instances where scaling operations up came with unanticipated problems. Conversely, similar things happen when downscaling, not to mention the fact that you can't downscale infinitely. I'd like to see your theorized multilayer film coater/hopper intended for home-lab scale. I guarantee you it will NOT be significantly less complex than a full scale one. And that's just one example. Scaling down does not come with the benefit of significantly reduced complexity. Coordinating a well-educated, well-equipped and not too time-constrained group of 'makers' is likewise not trivial.

Nitrous · Mar 14, 2022

koraks said:
Talk to the people behind the Impossible Project. Or talk to the guys at Innoviscoat. Anything can be done - in theory. But the real world is not a theoretical construct...

Yes and no. Again, in theory, yes. But given your career, I'm sure you're aware of many instances where scaling operations up came with unanticipated problems. Conversely, similar things happen when downscaling, not to mention the fact that you can't downscale infinitely. I'd like to see your theorized multilayer film coater/hopper intended for home-lab scale. I guarantee you it will NOT be significantly less complex than a full scale one. And that's just one example. Scaling down does not come with the benefit of significantly reduced complexity. Coordinating a well-educated, well-equipped and not too time-constrained group of 'makers' is likewise not trivial.

and they say "herding cats" is near impossible! Seriously though, very few processes start out 'large scale'
In fact, the simplest way to make layered films is likely the application of one layer upon another as discrete processes.
Remember, I'm only thinking out loud. I would have immediately agreed with you.... on all accounts... but after looking at a fellow making his own IC's at home.... my sense of the 'impractical' has changed over the years.
if such a link is inappropriate, please delete...
Most great discoveries rarely being with "Eureka!"
They start with "Gee, isn't that interesting..."

Doug

Mainecoonmaniac · Mar 14, 2022

MingMingPhoto said:
Hi guys! What are some process ideas for color liquid emulsion? I know most processes have layers but I'm not looking to make anything super crisp I just want to experiment so be afraid to say anything - ty!

I never used this before, but it's a way of getting color images transferred to different surfaces. It's for digital printing.

https://inkaid1.com/products/inkaid-transferiez-image-transfer-medium

koraks · Mar 15, 2022

Nitrous said:
In fact, the simplest way to make layered films is likely the application of one layer upon another as discrete processes.

Sure, and you'll undoubtedly figure out the hard way why it isn't done that way by Fuji and Kodak. As with 1000 other things that seem simpler than they are.

The homemade IC guy is of course remarkable. Now compare how many people are interested in electronics with the ones who are into making film photography materials. While doing so, also keep an eye on educational background, analytical skill etc. Itll become fairly clear very quickly why the YouTube video yu ou posted is remarkable, and something similar with color film would be a miracle.

Also, keep in mind that my post you quoted initially was in response to a question by a specific member. If someone were to come along with a different track record, my assessment might have been different. So far however I have not spotted anyone I'd consider to stand a chance at this at this forum or any other photo forum I've frequented.

Nitrous · Mar 15, 2022

koraks said:
Sure, and you'll undoubtedly figure out the hard way why it isn't done that way by Fuji and Kodak. As with 1000 other things that seem simpler than they are.

The homemade IC guy is of course remarkable. Now compare how many people are interested in electronics with the ones who are into making film photography materials. While doing so, also keep an eye on educational background, analytical skill etc. Itll become fairly clear very quickly why the YouTube video yu ou posted is remarkable, and something similar with color film would be a miracle.

Also, keep in mind that my post you quoted initially was in response to a question by a specific member. If someone were to come along with a different track record, my assessment might have been different. So far however I have not spotted anyone I'd consider to stand a chance at this at this forum or any other photo forum I've frequented.

I suspect you're correct

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 15, 2022

3-plate color cameras were in use until the early 50's. I imagine the advantages would be: no need to make color separations when making printing plates for color magazine pictures; probably cheaper than LF color film; plain-ole black and white processing with fast turn-around and low cost.

There are also cameras that dropped a 3-shot film magazine in synch with a 3 color filter.

See http://www.vintagephoto.tv/index.shtml - navigate to 'Color Photographica' at the left (an example of why 'frames' aren't used for web pages).

Color liquid emulsion

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