Color internegative film availability

erian · Jul 14, 2018

Given that (some) movies are still taken on film then is also the color internegative film available?

What I mean is that is it possible to produce an positive image for projection from the negative film (using contact printing)?

I do not have any specific needs, I am just curious.

John Salim · Jul 14, 2018

Yes they are available Erian ( ... but motion picture only now ), and you don't necessarily need an internegative ( I N ) film to make positive prints ( slides ).

I N films are used for making negatives from intermediate 'positive' films called interpositives ( I P ) or from colour reversal films ( an I P film is a masked positive film designed to make an I N for bulk release printing ).

What you need is a 'print film' which is an unmasked negative film ( colour positives from negative ). These use the same process ( ECN-2 ), so you must therefore use the correct process ( ECN-2 ) to achieve quality reproduction.

With stills photography, Kodak used to make Vericolor Slide film ( rolls ) and Vericolor Print film ( sheets ) process C-41.

Here's a link to Eastman Kodak's laboratory and post production film products.... https://www.kodak.com/GB/en/motion/products/lab_and_post_production/default.htm

Hope that helps,
John S

Paul Howell · Jul 14, 2018

Ultrafine or Photowearhouse USA here in the states sells it, a couple of different speeds including one with an ISO (ASA) of about 1. Don't know if there are any labs in your part of the world that process ECN-2, from I understand you can remove the ram jet backing before processing in C-41.

John Salim · Jul 14, 2018

Internegative / interpositive films don't have a rem-jet backing, and the speed will be around the 5 to 10 ISO mark (... though not actually rated ).
Your best bet is to contact DeJonghe Film Post Production labs in Belgium, they're very helpful and don't have a minimum order cost.

link here... http://www.postproduction.be/en/

John S

thuggins · Jul 16, 2018

Paul Howell said:
Ultrafine or Photowearhouse USA here in the states sells it, a couple of different speeds including one with an ISO (ASA) of about 1. Don't know if there are any labs in your part of the world that process ECN-2, from I understand you can remove the ram jet backing before processing in C-41.

I believe I got the B&W transfer film from those folks. It did a pretty good job at making a B&W tranny from a B&W negative. If I ever mix up some more B&W chemicals I'll continue the experiment.

But for color, wouldn't you need a negative without the orange mask? Otherwise you will get something that looks like a cross processed negative (i.e. a slide with a pinkish-orange cast over everything). The unmasked Rollei film should work well as a starting point.

AgX · Jul 16, 2018

The unmasked Rollei camera film was designed to be printed on RA-4 paper (though likely it was just scanned, and the lacking of a mask even was advertized as being benefitial to this).
The unmasked cine print film though is designed for the masked cine camera film.
Mixing films from the still with films from the cine world would lead to a contrast mismatch.

AgX · Jul 16, 2018

I assume most productions using film for taking just use this. It then is scanned, edited, and sent out as digital files. If film copies are needed they can be printed from those files. In such workflow there no longer is a need for internegative films.
Maybe for large copy jobs a internegative is printed from a file and then used as master to high-speed print a film copy.

georgegrosu · Jul 18, 2018

The internegative and interpositive films were designed to protect the negative film to make several copies positive for the projection.
Used Bell & Howell contact printing machine
Here we are talking about making an interpositive / internegative after film.
When talking about passing the image from film to digital and then moving the digital image to the film we talk about other special installations.
These digital video transfer devices on the film are quite expensive (~ one million dollars in 2003).
Now maybe it has dropped some price but it's probably pretty expensive.
In general, digital transfer to film is done on order.
Positive color copies have clear pricing per meter.
There are different costs between making the positive after film and digital transfer.

George

John Salim · Jul 18, 2018

AgX said:
I assume most productions using film for taking just use this. It then is scanned, edited, and sent out as digital files. If film copies are needed they can be printed from those files. In such workflow there no longer is a need for internegative films.
Maybe for large copy jobs a internegative is printed from a file and then used as master to high-speed print a film copy.

Today, movies shot on film will ( mostly ) be scanned and finished digitally - and projected digitally, but if a film print is needed, a filmout Internegative ( via a film recorder ) will be produced, and projection prints struck from that.
It is also possible to have a positive colour print filmout made ( including all soundtracks ) if only one or two prints are needed.

John S

Paul Howell · Jul 18, 2018

thuggins said:
I believe I got the B&W transfer film from those folks. It did a pretty good job at making a B&W tranny from a B&W negative. If I ever mix up some more B&W chemicals I'll continue the experiment.

But for color, wouldn't you need a negative without the orange mask? Otherwise you will get something that looks like a cross processed negative (i.e. a slide with a pinkish-orange cast over everything). The unmasked Rollei film should work well as a starting point.

This is movie film, ought not have the orange mask.

John Salim · Jul 18, 2018

Let's not get confused here.
Colour motion picture Internegatives and Interpositives have an orange mask.
Don't forget these are for printing purposes - not for direct viewing.

John S

the image here doesn't show an Internegative ( which would look pretty much the same as the original negative )

georgegrosu · Jul 19, 2018

I'm trying to add ones presented to John Salim a LAD image (Laboratory Aim Density).

George

erian · Jul 19, 2018

georgegrosu said:
I'm trying to add ones presented to John Salim a LAD image (Laboratory Aim Density).

George

Can you comment this a little?

What steps and products are required to produce the positive print for projection from the original negative?

DREW WILEY · Jul 19, 2018

Other than the orange mask, an interneg of another neg made using what is itself negative film would resemble a positive image, albeit an odd one. Therefore it would correctly be termed an interpositive - the opposite of making a internegative starting with chrome, slide, or positive Technicolor film. It's the intermediate step
in duplicating.

georgegrosu · Jul 20, 2018

Sorry for my English.
The realization of the interpositive color is economically justified when it is necessary to achieve a large number of positive copies.
If it were done directly after the negative film it would scratch, eventually it would break (hundreds of copies).
- negative color calibrated
- Copy contact the negative color calibrated on Eastman Color Intermediate
- ECN 2 development ⇒ Interpositive color
- Copy contact Color interpositive on Eastman Color Intermediate
- ECN 2 development ⇒ Internegative color
- Copy contact Internegative color on Color Print film
- ECP development ⇒ Color Print
The contrast of a color negative is 0.6.
The contrast of a intermediate film is 1.0.
The contrast of a color positive film is over 3.0.
The contrast of the final image is given by the product between the copied image and the contrast of the film used for printing.

https://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/...niques/laboratory_aim_density_lad/default.htm
http://molly.magic.rit.edu/~mac/test/presentation_pdf.pdf Images are taken from here.

George

erian · Jul 20, 2018

georgegrosu said:
The contrast of a color negative is 0.6.
The contrast of a intermediate film is 1.0.
The contrast of a color positive film is over 3.0.
The contrast of the final image is given by the product between the copied image and the contrast of the film used for printing.

Thank you for this informative post!

So to make a film for the projection, the minimum that is needed is a contact print (I think this is the proper term) from the original negative onto the (cine) color print film developed in ECP.

I like to link here also to another similar discussion https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/maskless-negative-film-in-c41-to-create-slides.142289/

Does anybody have experience with printing from photographic film? It was mentioned before that the contrasts of the films do not match but how bad could it be? Exposing film for limited dynamic range is known problem for slide film users.

georgegrosu · Jul 21, 2018

Contact print - in cinematography is work print.
Of course this is not important.
Realization a positive color after a color negative film I do not think it's a problem if you can calibrate the color negative and you
can give a corrected light when make the contact print.
I prefer to use my reversible color process to make direct slide on the positive color film.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/fuji-positive-color-film-in-color-reversible-process.159437/
I have not done any tests because the filters I use hold them in the hand and at a 1 second exposure the image is slightly shaky.

George

Minoltafan2904 · Jul 22, 2018

I don't see copy, dupe or internegative film coming back at all.
The best way nowadays to print from positives is simply by scanning and digital printing, we have amazing scanners nowadays that can extract a lot of detail and make better prints than with an internegative.
Now if Cibachrome were to come back....... that's a different story.

Photo Engineer · Jul 22, 2018

The contrasts given above for films are for still films. For motion picture, the starting negative is about 0.5 or thereabouts and the other contrasts are adjusted accordingly.

Also, the internegative films have upswept shoulders in order to compensate for the toe of the intermediate positives or other images.

Finally, the Dmax of all positive print films are about 4.0, thus giving a much longer latitude. Direct reversal films, such as E6, cannot get much above 3.0 and thus suffer from a shorter latitude. This is another argument in favor of making images from negatives.

PE

DREW WILEY · Jul 23, 2018

Minoltafan - I'd agree with you if it came to dime a dozen commercial lab internegs. Well done is a whole different story. And Fuji Supergloss can easily replicate the highly detailed "3D" look of Cibachrome. Scanning and digital printing might be vastly more popular and convenient, but it's a step backward in quality as far as I'm concerned. A few really good practitioners of laser printing can come very close.

georgegrosu · Jul 24, 2018

The color intermediate film is executed to protect the original negative from scratches.
The intermediate film is produce to get a copy as close to the color negative (including contrast).
Therefore, the interpositive and the interngative is developed at ɤ = 1.00.

To get an idea of how the reversible color image on the positive color film looks like compared to the positive color LAD test.
I scanned together the positive color LAD and 442 color positive test developed in a color reversible process.

George

Color internegative film availability

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