Color film rookie in love with Ektar. What other films should I try?

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Galah

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Chris, I don't rate the ISO of my neg film anywhere close to half the box speed. Approximately a third stop or half stop is all I seem to need add to get very rich saturation.

Dear Keith,

I'm having trouble interpreting your statement, could you please elaborate?

I mean, in the first sentence, it seems you're suggesting that, say, film rated at 200 ISO by the manufacturer should be exposed as if it were <100 ISO? How does that square with your second sentence?:confused:

Moreover, doesn't "overexposure" reduce colour saturation? I mean, for example, when photographing a sunset, a sure way to "bleach" the colours in the sky is to overexpose it: on the other hand, underexposure makes the colours richer (more saturated):smile:.
 

keithwms

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Hey Keith;

Over exposing color film helps with saturation, and without doing so you cannot get a convincing black from an RA-4 print.

But Chris! I routinely get exactly the results that I want, including convincing blacks, by exposing at box speed or a small (half stop or so) tick slower if I want more defined primary colours.

Moreover, I think it is in the film-makers' best interest to make it as easy as possible for people to get the best possible results with their product.

I suspect that the differences in people's ratings of c41 films comes down to personal preferences about the role of the primary colours and their metering practices. I do not deny that you (Chris) get better results for your taste, using your methods. And that is how it should be- everybody should experiment and find their own way. For my taste, rating fuji 160 at 100 or so gives me a rather pronounced shift to primary colours. Frankly, I do it when I want velvia-esque rendition with strong primaries but I am worried about exposure latitude.

But still... I am always mystified why some propose rating a modern c41 colour film a full stop slower and simultaneously imply that this is the way to get the best result. Best for what? The only c41 films of which I am aware that really always need overexposure, in my own experience, are the b&w chromogenics- the Kodak bw400CN and xp2. Especially xp2 looks downright flat to my eye if rated at box speed. I'm not sure what's up with that box speed, Mr. Ilford!

Anyway, I recall that Mr. Callow routinely rates his c41 a stop or so slower, but the colour palette he gets, while very effective for his imagery, is hardly neutral. I mean, check it out: it's great stuff he does, and his methods are his prerogative, but the rating has clearly shifted the colours to primaries. JD also experiments with x-processing and stuff so I think he will agree that he is broadly interested in, let's say, "non-neutral" colour renditions. Very interesting work.... but I'd assert that neutral colours are clearly not the aim of how he uses colour film. Perhaps he will chime in and come clean about his intentions with regard to literal colour :wink:

Dear Keith,

I'm having trouble interpreting your statement, could you please elaborate?

I mean, in the first sentence, it seems you're suggesting that, say, film rated at 200 ISO by the manufacturer should be exposed as if it were <100 ISO? How does that square with your second sentence?:confused:

Well, I just recommended a very wide bracket to get the feeling for what over /under-exposure does with c41 and with slide. The results are *totally* different with c41 than what you get with slide. As a general practice, when I start off with any new film, I shoot some brackets and decide how I want to rate the film in the future. And I almost always arrive at the conclusion that box speed gives the most neutral colour rendition. Nevertheless, I still sometimes overexpose a print film or underexpose a slide film to get a particular rendition. That is common practice.

Moreover, doesn't "overexposure" reduce colour saturation? I mean, for example, when photographing a sunset, a sure way to "bleach" the colours in the sky is to overexpose it: on the other hand, underexposure makes the colours richer (more saturated):smile:.

No, actually, [mild] overexposure of a c41 film does not reduce saturation. "Mild"= +1 or +2 stops. Perhaps you have contrary intuition from working with slide or digital; for those two media, overexposure does indeed very easily wash things out and tend to make them go white on you. Colour neg film is quite different; try a few brackets and you will see. Overexposing colour c41 film by a stop or fractions of a stop tends to make the scene appear more saturated because it shifts the colours more to the primaries. In other words, you get less nuanced colours that appear more vivid.

Let's take a concrete example. Say, one of the 160 colour print films. If you rate it at ISO 160, at "box speed," then you will likely get the most neutral colours and most evenly tempered contrast, so to speak. In other words, highlight and shadow detail will be equally prioritized in all the colour channels.

Now, if you rate that 160 film at, say, ISO 100, then you are telling the camera that the film is actually a bit slower, so the net result will be overexposure of the film. This overexposure can do some good things and it can do some bad things.... it depends on what you're after. A number of people prefer to trade away the finer nuances of the more neutral colours for a slightly reduced colour palette, with colours tending to be closer to the primaries. The result, particularly in a landscape scene, can be more vivid definition of the colours. This can be a desirable outcome, and a lot of folks do that (myself included) when they want that kind of result.

But... suppose that you want to do a portrait and you want colours as nuanced and true to life and (dare I say) literal as possible. Then you will not want to overexpose the film relative to box speed.

Please note (and perhaps you know already, but it is a widespread confusion) that overexposing and "pushing" are two different things. If you rate a 160 film at 100 but develop for 160 then you are merely overexposing it relative to box speed. That's all. But if you rate it at 100 and then adjust development time to "make up" for the implied lower sensitivity of the film, then you are pushing the film. The net result is very different.
 
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jd callow

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To Kieth,
Most of the work in my gallery is crossprocessed and therefore has no bearing on how I rate c41 film. For c41 materials I more often than not expose at half the box speed and get tighter grain, sharper images, the same pallet (neutral or not -- all films are biased so mostly not except in our brains), and an image that prints easily. The color is fuller throughout the image. The contrast and tonal range becomes immaterial due to the limits of the paper. Others can do as they like the proof is in the print.

Meanwhile, I have yet to shoot ektar so I can not answer the OP's question.
 

Galah

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I have been trying to find some Ektar 100 locally (Adelaide , South Australia) without success:sad: -though some retailers are expecting to place an order for it, due to recent interest:smile:: however, others are not even interested:sad:.

Very few here seem to have even heard of it, or know anything about it. Clearly, there is a communications gap between the Kodak people and the retailers.:sad:
 
OP
OP

TheOtherEast

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I like Ektar 100 too, especially for landscape and architecture photos. It's super sharp and the color saturation is absolutely beautiful. But to be honest, I wouldn't recommend Ektar for a beginner. It seems to be extremely unforgiving with exposure, especially underexposure. Moreso than any other film I've used. You really have to try to get the exposure just right, and a light meter is pretty much mandatory. I've tried using the "Sunny 16 Rule" with Ektar, but I didn't have any luck at all. If you underexpose it, the colors get really weird. With other films, I've had good results by estimating the light. In fact, with most color print films I've been able to get decent pictures without using a light meter at all. But still, if you do nail the exposure, it will take incredible pictures that will blow you away. I like Ektar and I will keep using it. But it's just a different film and it takes some getting used to.

If you're getting good results with Ektar 100, then keep using it. I would also recommend trying Ultra Color 100. Kodak is going to discontinue it, but you can still find it in most photography supply shops. It has very nice color saturation, but gives a little bit of a warmer tone than Ektar. Kodak Gold 200 is a great film for all-around general use. It's not as special or spectacular as Ektar of course, but it's very forgiving with exposure and if you're anywhere near the right exposure, you will get good results. I shoot it all the time without even using a light meter. I use it for my kind of fall back film, when I don't want to be too worried about exposure, and just want to use an easy film for some landscape photos or snapshots.

And yes, definitely try some Kodachrome! I shot a roll of Kodachrome (the first time I have ever used slide film) and it's amazing!

- Chris

Well, I haven't had many exposure problems with Ektar. A few blue shadows here and there on my first rolls but that's not hard to adjust for.


I don't have any scans of my darkroom prints yet, but I do have some cheap negative scans from Walgreens.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v219/killerclaw/?action=view&current=FH000004.jpg
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nicefor88

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Hi,
I love Ektar too. There's someone in Rochester who still cares about analog photographers.:wink:
You could try Fuji Reala, also in 100ISO. But I find it to loose detail in deep reds, flowers for instance, a problem I didn't find in Ektar.
The Fuji pro 160 are also good.
Long live analog phot!!!!
 

Alessandro Lemser

Try Fujifilm Superia Reala 100
What you see is what you get. The world like your eyes see...
 

Galah

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No Ektar 100 in Oz??

I tried to get some Ektar 100 at a couple of "real" photo stores during the past two weeks.

This is what I found:

a) They hadn't heard of it, and didn't really care about it whatever.:surprised:

b) Those who did try to find some for me, found that it wasn't available from their Australian Kodak distributor.:confused:

So much for that!
 
OP
OP

TheOtherEast

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Sep 28, 2008
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I tried to get some Ektar 100 at a couple of "real" photo stores during the past two weeks.

This is what I found:

a) They hadn't heard of it, and didn't really care about it whatever.:surprised:

b) Those who did try to find some for me, found that it wasn't available from their Australian Kodak distributor.:confused:

So much for that!

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