Color film developing c41 advice

Djordje · Dec 7, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
I'm not sure what to make of these. The Dmin (mask) varies all over the place, but it is manufactured into the film, and so something is changing in the process that changes the mask and that is usually fog or uncontrolled seasoning if the process is replenished. Use of a rinse after the CD is not advised. Use a stop if you must.

PE

Hi PE,
thank you for your answer I really appreciate it.
The main reason why I washing the film is to keep my developer and bleach clean and not contaminated, but I'm more than happy to try a different way.

my current chemicals (digibase c41)

My current dev process is:

preheating tank 5min

developer 3:15
wash 30sec
bleach 4min
wash 2min
fix 6:30
wash 4min
wash 1min
wash 1min
stabilizer 1min

I planning to try:

preheating tank 5min

developer 3:15
bleach 4min
wash 2min
fix 6:30
wash 2min
wash 1min
stabilizer 1min

If you have any recommendations for the process I'm happy to try.

Thank you

Djordje · Dec 7, 2019

Thank you Rudeofus,
for your answer.

Lab scanners are much, much better in performance than flatbed scanners or cheap consumer scanners. They have a much better dynamic range

Scanner noise and grain are givens, and scanner software does different things to deal with it.

Definitely you're right about better dynamic range, but even if I use my Nikon DSLR which has a much higher dynamic range than the scanner I still can see the blue cast.
You can download raw tif negative that lab develops and one that I develope and you can try to process photos you'll understand what I'm having problem with...

3.Lab development stations these days suffer from low volume, which may make their process liquids affected by aerial oxidation rather than exhaustion, and as a result their results may be worse than you may think.
4.You own process at home runs at much smaller liquid levels per roll than lab processes, and accurate temperature control at home is at least difficult. Your results may be less than ideal even if you followed the instructions to the letter.

That's right I don't have to much control to under my water temperature...After I pour chemical(37.8degree) I bring back my tank in warm water just to keep the temperature right...but as you said is difficult.

Lab scanners have different adjustments for each film product, which means they can make adjustments that you haven't tried yet and that nobody is free to tell us about. There's a chance, that lab scanners try to recognize image content and use this info for "optimized" adjustments.

Last 12 years I'm in the film industry(vfx) and every day working with colors, colorspaces, grading...I have enough knowledge to correct any photo in the nice color graded picture, but the reason, why I create this thread, is more focused on the negative process and what I'm doing wrong in terms of developing, which is really hard to say. I'm just looking for different logical guessing what can be the problem and I believe you and people on the forum had much more experience than with developing.

Thank you so much for you're time.
Cheers

twelvetone12 · Dec 7, 2019

Do you measure your process temperature during development? I use a big jug of water that can almost submerge my tank, I keep the water at 41c. I have seen this way that the temperature inside the tank keeps pretty well. I also bring the temperature of the process to 38.3, since generally by pouring it and handling it tends to go down an couple tenths of degree. I periodically measure chemicals inside the tank and it stays around 38. I use a 4-reel jobo tank which I fill with 1l of chemistry. I do 7-bath e6 this way and the results are beautiful.

Djordje · Dec 7, 2019

twelvetone12 said:
Do you measure your process temperature during development? I use a big jug of water that can almost submerge my tank, I keep the water at 41c. I have seen this way that the temperature inside the tank keeps pretty well. I also bring the temperature of the process to 38.3, since generally by pouring it and handling it tends to go down an couple tenths of degree. I periodically measure chemicals inside the tank and it stays around 38. I use a 4-reel jobo tank which I fill with 1l of chemistry. I do 7-bath e6 this way and the results are beautiful.

Thank you twelvetone12,
I don't have a really fast temperature meter and I tried to measure temperature between agitation,because is not fast enough is not really easy to get precise temperature,but I did a test yesterday...and I can say that when I pour 37,8 degree temperature into my tank after couple agitation temperature is around 37...which is not really good.I'm thinking now, maybe is better to reach a bit higher temperature and pour into the tank...Something around 38degrees.In instructions said 37,8 +0.3 - 0.3...In that case, I'll have a bit better temperature during the process.

How you keep your water temperature constantly on 41, can you please tell me more about it?
I can't imagine E6 doing my self...I'm struggling with c41 to do it properly...It would be really helpful if you explain you're c41 process a bit detail...(how many times you wash your a film? after every step? which chemicals you're using?

Also, I wanted to know is there any documentation about color shifting? for example...If the temperature is to hi shift purple if it's to low shift to green or something light that...In that case, I'll know it what the problem can be as well.

Thank you so much,
Djordje

Rudeofus · Dec 8, 2019

Djordje said:
Definitely you're right about better dynamic range, but even if I use my Nikon DSLR which has a much higher dynamic range than the scanner I still can see the blue cast.
You can download raw tif negative that lab develops and one that I develope and you can try to process photos you'll understand what I'm having problem with...

The difference between high and low dynamic range is not so much whether shadows appear blue or gray or whatever. The main difference is whether you can correct these without getting awful noise and banding. If you have a consistent process, with all its flaws and defects it may bring with it, then you can either try to make corrections to your process, and you can create presets in your post processing software to address these defects without much manual work. Pro labs do the former with control strips and process adjustments, and the latter with their scanner software, and they can do this quickly because they have both throughput and process consistency. Doing it in a small volume process at home may be tedious and takes a lot of time, but it can certainly be done.

BTW if you pour in your chems at 38°C, you will most definitely see a temperature drop by the time development step is complete. Think about pouring process chems at 38.5 or 39°C unless it's very hot outside. Again, the most important aspect is consistency, not perfection.

Djordje · Dec 8, 2019

Rudeofus said:
The difference between high and low dynamic range is not so much whether shadows appear blue or gray or whatever. The main difference is whether you can correct these without getting awful noise and banding. If you have a consistent process, with all its flaws and defects it may bring with it, then you can either try to make corrections to your process, and you can create presets in your post processing software to address these defects without much manual work. Pro labs do the former with control strips and process adjustments, and the latter with their scanner software, and they can do this quickly because they have both throughput and process consistency. Doing it in a small volume process at home may be tedious and takes a lot of time, but it can certainly be done.

BTW if you pour in your chems at 38°C, you will most definitely see a temperature drop by the time development step is complete. Think about pouring process chems at 38.5 or 39°C unless it's very hot outside. Again, the most important aspect is consistency, not perfection.

Thank you Rodofus,

I just wanted to say, what ever dynamic range is of their scaner it doesn't metter...Main difference is behaviour fo lab and my negative.Their have less blue and thats all I wanted to investigate.

here is nice example how negative should like and what is my understanding what behavior of Negativnive should be.

we talking here about perfect exposure and definitely professional developement really good controlled I gueses, but the questions is what am doing wrong in term of developing. Its definitely hard to get that answers,beavuse is forensic question.

Ill shot fresh roll and do test whith different temperature of developer and ill get back to you if I discover what's the problem.

thank you

Rudeofus · Dec 8, 2019

You will need control strips, which you can get at e.g. Nordfoto (they do ship to Serbia). Once you know your process is consistent, you can start fine tuning your setup. Kodak published some documents for their own Flexicolor chemistry, but they should be mostly applicable to your own processing chems as well, especially regarding your color developer. Here is a document for proper processing in a small inversion tank. This document gives you instructions, how to interpret these control strips to quickly adjust your process.

Djordje · Dec 8, 2019

Rudeofus said:
You will need control strips, which you can get at e.g. Nordfoto (they do ship to Serbia). Once you know your process is consistent, you can start fine tuning your setup. Kodak published some documents for their own Flexicolor chemistry, but they should be mostly applicable to your own processing chems as well, especially regarding your color developer. Here is a document for proper processing in a small inversion tank. This document gives you instructions, how to interpret these control strips to quickly adjust your process.

Thank you Rudeofus,

very interesting documentation I'll definitely try the way that Kodak recommends. Also, my current agitation is just spinning a stick of the thank first 10 seconds and after that every minute for 10 seconds, just to avoid to much grain, but I have tried some different ways.

Also I'm thinking now to buy Sous Vide Cooker which works the same as cinestill temperature controller.

Thank you so much for sharing this documentation.
Djordje

Gimenosaiz · Dec 13, 2019

Hello!!

This is a very useful thread !!
I'm also very concern with my color negatives. I'm the happy user of Epson V800 + Silverfast or Epson Scan... but I'm learning to scan with a camera and Photoshop because for me, as a retail user, the best choice is that combo, once I've selected wich negs are good canditates for that extra job.

Thanks for sharing!!

kind regards from Spain
Antonio

Djordje · Dec 22, 2019

Hello everyone,

I did one more test and I can say I'm happy how looks like, but still didn't super happy with the result. I get rid of pink/red cast and I got more yellow/green cast which is more acceptable for me.

How I shot:
I use 35mm Kodak Gold 200 24exp and Nikon f100(matrix metering) I shot one-stop underexpose, normal and one-stop overexposed.
Last time I use 120mm film for the test, but my main focus is on colors which are fine to test it with 35mm

I change whey of developing and I tried to control water temperature putting my tank in how water...

How I process:

My current dev process is:
preheating tank 5min
developer 3:15
wash 30sec
bleach 4min
wash 2min
fix 6:30
wash 4min
wash 1min
wash 1min
stabilizer 1min
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AzAGP0RfIk0N-G5CC_vBdQ_gZ4navn_K

Test dev process is:
preheating tank 2:30min
developer 3:15
bleach 3min
wash 2min ( very aggressive wash around 4bath)
fix 4:30
wash 3min ( very aggressive wash as well around 6,7bath with water temperature around the stabilizer temperature)
stabilizer 1min
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1eLQiBHUakRWv2C2-_c-Sjve7HUCHgTua

raw negative comparison:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Dk_t97BpyvjpJpbnRtR1XVRXrFxA5Voo
the low one is my current Dev
top one is my test dev
We can see that tested is more red/pink if I compare with my current dev way which is more yellow, also the lower one looks overdeveloped. I think that is because of 1minute more bleaching(correct me if I'm wrong)

I can say that testDev looks smoother, sharper and is not overexposed. (this is my first impression, worth to test it more to make sure I'm right)

Take a closer look at some examples at 100% crop.
This is simple inversion and white balance correction(I use color chart mid-gray to balance my picture, but you can see differences in shadows mostly and in highlights as well
)
currentDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Wotqb389DLGu8aBEarwNOc9OGzJQZG9A
testDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1REtMPuEmUdaSwu728YD9oqHdocFKcYyp

currentDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NZECGWusz6JlVUSCJK0JNGc0DK7KvygA
testDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hlntGItVSy5Ugd9dKCEkNxTVGdoBTH_3

currentDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xIX6JFmlBBhqej1sa_RzsmW-rCIU_GAb
testDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wJP4BtqStSgAZjwyc8EfdBoQByofwEmn

currentDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=17I_yHmzOo6oGKSrWoh6D7l1h3qgisM5I
testDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1K1WukbNHGCxdWiujIo1QKP8jlwtPsfMr

This is the color corrected version on 100%
currentDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wI7Ut2jGxk8wiqGZkmb7RS8E8XDI_n3B
testDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=15zRONFbCmP-EyDTuKtcs7PTCHgeNUMeD

You can clearly see that color looks more natural on the new testDev image.
currentDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1R4mCyalKe_0SgDuhA9KIUOfKz0grTq5o
testDev:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wxWQzRn4HJuPFwv4bi7uBG7x_Svuuxa3

I can't conclude anything yet, but I'm definitely happier what I get with a different way of developing.I'll maybe in future add more time to the fixer , maybe one more minute(5:30), but for now. Definitely I'll buy Sous Vide Cooker but for now, because I need constant and correct temperature for the test in the future.

Thank you, everyone,
Djordje

Djordje · Dec 22, 2019

Gimenosaiz said:
Hello!!

This is a very useful thread !!
I'm also very concern with my color negatives. I'm the happy user of Epson V800 + Silverfast or Epson Scan... but I'm learning to scan with a camera and Photoshop because for me, as a retail user, the best choice is that combo, once I've selected wich negs are good canditates for that extra job.

Thanks for sharing!!

kind regards from Spain
Antonio

Hello Spain,
Thank you, Antonio, I'm glad you like it.

I want to share with you something I found, really interesting way of negative conversion. Similar to the color enlarger.

Thank you,
Djordje

Photo Engineer · Dec 22, 2019

Do not ever ever wash after the CD when processing C41 films. You should either use a dilute stop or go directly into the bleach!

PE

mshchem · Dec 23, 2019

I sure don't understand why folks shoot 35mm color negative film and then scan to display on a screen. I still print medium and (a little) large format color conventionally in the darkroom.
Why take a digital picture of a color negative instead of shooting a digital shot to begin with?

I guess the simple answer is film is amazing, it's fun to develop, and you can buy amazing film cameras for almost nothing.

Djordje · Dec 23, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
Do not ever ever wash after the CD when processing C41 films. You should either use a dilute stop or go directly into the bleach!

PE

Thank you, you mentioned last time and I follow you're advice, look definitely much better.

Djordje · Dec 23, 2019

mshchem said:
I sure don't understand why folks shoot 35mm color negative film and then scan to display on a screen. I still print medium and (a little) large format color conventionally in the darkroom.
Why take a digital picture of a color negative instead of shooting a digital shot to begin with?

I guess the simple answer is film is amazing, it's fun to develop, and you can buy amazing film cameras for almost nothing.

Hi mshchem,
this thread is mainly about developing advice.

Your questions is very sensitive and difficult... film or digital?It's always long discussion about it.

I think shoting film in general it doesnt mater what format you shoting is mainly becuse of grain, colors, softness and feeling of photo that you took is frozen moment of our memory...
These days modern cameras are very powerful and you can shot medium format digital as well. Why you shoting film?

Thank you,
Djordje

mshchem · Dec 23, 2019

Djordje said:
Why you shoting film?

No computers. Real prints. Elegance.

Djordje · Dec 23, 2019

mshchem said:
No computers. Real prints. Elegance.

Oh yes.Thank you

mshchem · Dec 23, 2019

Djordje said:
Oh yes.Thank you

Helge · Dec 28, 2019

mshchem said:
I sure don't understand why folks shoot 35mm color negative film and then scan to display on a screen. I still print medium and (a little) large format color conventionally in the darkroom.
Why take a digital picture of a color negative instead of shooting a digital shot to begin with?

I guess the simple answer is film is amazing, it's fun to develop, and you can buy amazing film cameras for almost nothing.

It's very simple:
With the multishot DSLR scanning method you can get practically any resolution, bitdepth and dynamics you'd want, including a very simple and fast contact sheet style proof, or for Instagram.
Even one shot with a DSLR scan rig is still a far more controlled shooting situation than taking the photo in the wild. You'll be able to retake the photo as many times as you want to hit the perfect exposure from the superior range of film.

And more importantly still, even without taking multiple shots some of the advantages of film still leaves residual or inferred results on the digital image.
In much the same way a radically downscaled version of a 28mm D850 frame vs an iPhone frame is still noticeably better.

That said, wet printing is downplayed a worrying amount on the net today. Probably because either people are making a virtue out of necessity, laziness or have just plain forgotten, or never really seen how absolutely, unquestionably superior a RA4 or B&W print done well, is to any scanned and printed photo.

mshchem · Dec 28, 2019

Helge said:
It's very simple:
With the multishot DSLR scanning method you can get practically any resolution, bitdepth and dynamics you'd want, including a very simple and fast contact sheet style proof, or for Instagram.
Even one shot with a DSLR scan rig is still a far more controlled shooting situation than taking the photo in the wild. You'll be able to retake the photo as many times as you want to hit the perfect exposure from the superior range of film.

And more importantly still, even without taking multiple shots some of the advantages of film still leaves residual or inferred results on the digital image.
In much the same way a radically downscaled version of a 28mm D850 frame vs an iPhone frame is still noticeably better.

That said, wet printing is downplayed a worrying amount on the net today. Probably because either people are making a virtue out of necessity, laziness or have just plain forgotten, or never really seen how absolutely, unquestionably superior an RA4 or B&W print done well, is to any scanned and printed photo.

Ok, you lost me, but I believe you. I will never argue about the beauty of film.

I tell people that all the most important digital cinema is backed up by 3 strips of black and white film, color separation negatives. Most folks don't understand. It's the same way Technicolor was shot in the 1930's.

removed account4 · Dec 28, 2019

my only advice isn't gonna help you
i'd develop it yourself either with a
chem-pack ( or whatever they call color chemistry )
or say to hell with it and develop it like i do in caffenol c and dektol.

Djordje · Dec 28, 2019

jnantz said:
my only advice isn't gonna help you
i'd develop it yourself either with a
chem-pack ( or whatever they call color chemistry )
or say to hell with it and develop it like i do in caffenol c and dektol.

Thank you for being stick to the topic
I'll do some color film soon and I'll develop again just to test more and see is the result more correct in a bit different way than before.It should be better, but I'll keep you posted guys.
Btw caffenol c and dektol sound really crazy but interesting. Who knows...At some point maybe I'll try. Cheers

Djordje · Mar 31, 2020

Hi, everyone, I hope you all of you and your family doing well these days.
I just find Alex Burke Q&A and he talks a lot about color negative and manual inversion.

ENJOY,
ALL THE BEST

Djordje

Color film developing c41 advice

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