Color balancing is impossible!

DREW WILEY · Jan 20, 2015

Papers have changed somewhat, but the old Kodak Color Guides in second-hand bookstores give still-valid instructions for ring-around testing,
with good illustrations, along with basic applicable color theory. Lots of the time it's these basic tenets which are needed.

L Gebhardt · Jan 21, 2015

One thing I noticed is each type of film is different, but rolls of the same type all need approximately the same filtration. So it's not too late to shoot a gray card. Just get it in approximately the same light on the same film.

mklw1954 · Jan 21, 2015

When I was first learning and had no idea where to go with Y and M corrections, something that helped greatly was that I scanned a good negative, i.e., the colors looked true without any corrections, and then I modified the color balance of the scan to get what I saw in my print. Doing this, I could tell what needed correction and if it needed a lot or minor correction. This got me in the ballpark and then I could refine the filtration.

I did this only to learn initially. Once you get the filtration and exposure for your enlarger/film/paper, usually only relatively minor corrections are needed and with a little experience you know which way to make corrections.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 21, 2015

I wonder if it's a mixed lighting situation? I would scan the neg and post it on APUG and let the sharp eyes look at them.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 21, 2015

I wonder if it's a mixed lighting situation? I would scan the neg and post it on APUG and let the sharp eyes look at them. Also, a lot of labs that print color negs now scan the negs first and use LED type device to flash the RA paper when it's printed. I don't know if there are some color correction trickery that goes on after the scan. I've printed some color negs that had color crossover so I feel your pain.

markd514 · Jan 21, 2015

Thanks Mr Bill that is very helpful. Yes, even though I did this years ago it was still a guess. I have lately just realized that a blue cast is actually purplish, and a red is actually brownish. Magenta and cyan will then fall into place. I think I am on the right track. Yellow is easy. I am going to do one of those ring around test strips.

markd514 · Jan 21, 2015

There is also something else going on here. I found something interesting last night while comparing the "pro lab" print to mine. I can NEVER get my whites as white as the pro lab.....the border is not as white on my prints!!! I turned over the pro lab print and it is the SAME paper! Fuji crystal archive. All of my prints just have a slightly darker border. My easel masked it but the process is doing something. It is on all dozen or so prints. Slightly beige. THEN, I said to myself..what is with this tray processing I hear about...never did it with color? So I attempted to try that at 70 degrees. I did 2 prints....one at 2 minute, and one at 3 minute because I was not sure what the dev time should be. The results where nearly identical....really, really close to the point it was a non issue. So I used the 2 minute developing time. BUT GUESS WHAT? All borders on the tray prints at low developing temp where pristine virgin white! Same paper! And it is brand new. I wonder if it is the process...the tray was developer to blix...that's it... JOBO is 100 degree 30 second prewash then 1 min dev, then 30 second Kodak indicator stop bath then 30 second wash, and 1 minute blix. all solutions in tray are 500ml, jobo I use 200ml in the tank that is meant for 1 11x14 or 2 8x10, but I only do 1 8x10 at a time right now. I am an electronics engineer so I know the importance of consistency. All jobo temps are 100 degrees 1 minute and drain last 10 seconds.
I like the tray processing since borders are ultra white. One thing I noticed is that my colors don't seem to pop. They always seem like they are a bit old and dull. everything is new.

Photo Engineer · Jan 21, 2015

Use RA-RT developer replenisher without starter and you will probably get more saturation.

If you use indicator stop bath, perhaps some of the orange dye is remaining behind. Or, perhaps your blix and wash are too short.

PE

MattKing · Jan 21, 2015

You may have some contamination in the JOBO - the filler "chute" needs to be rinsed thoroughly between blix at the end of one print, and developer at the beginning of the next.

markd514 · Jan 21, 2015

I am using the Kodak RA replenisher 10L from unique photo in NJ along with the companion Blix. I am going to try the jobo with only the developer than blix...no wash, no stop
why do I need a stop in drum processing?
What is that blue coating that washes off the paper on prewash?

Photo Engineer · Jan 21, 2015

Mark, without a stop in drum processing, you can get developer carryover into the blix which causes streaks.

The blue color in the prewet are dyes from the paper which are there to improve sharpness and adjust speed.

PE

DREW WILEY · Jan 21, 2015

No presoak, no stop? = No more answers to futile questions when things don't come out consistently!

markd514 · Jan 21, 2015

DREW WILEY said:
No presoak, no stop? = No more answers to futile questions when things don't come out consistently!

It's called experimenting...lol

I am going to experiment with no wash or stop, just the 2 main chems. I want to find out why the borders beneath the easel are not brilliant white like they ought to be. How can I get a balanced photo with good whites if the borders are not pristine? The 70 degree tray method is producing pristine white borders. Something is causing it.

pentaxuser · Jan 22, 2015

markd514 said:
How can I get a balanced photo with good whites if the borders are not pristine? The 70 degree tray method is producing pristine white borders. Something is causing it.

Excellent point made. I wish you well in your search

pentaxuser

markd514 · Jan 22, 2015

Thanks for all the help guys. I am getting better! Got some Kodak endura paper and used that too with the new Fuji. Colors are good but it's the green that doesn't pop on either one. It is muted. Just not a bright green like the pro prints. Keep in mind I am working off of a pro developed set of negatives and 4x6 prints to compare. They where developed c41, scanned then processed to normal ra4 like they do nowadays I guess. Ugh...they just can't keep it all analog.

mnemosyne · Jan 23, 2015

markd514 said:
There is also something else going on here. I found something interesting last night while comparing the "pro lab" print to mine. I can NEVER get my whites as white as the pro lab.....the border is not as white on my prints!!! I turned over the pro lab print and it is the SAME paper! Fuji crystal archive. All of my prints just have a slightly darker border. My easel masked it but the process is doing something. It is on all dozen or so prints. Slightly beige. THEN, I said to myself..what is with this tray processing I hear about...never did it with color? So I attempted to try that at 70 degrees. I did 2 prints....one at 2 minute, and one at 3 minute because I was not sure what the dev time should be. The results where nearly identical....really, really close to the point it was a non issue. So I used the 2 minute developing time. BUT GUESS WHAT? All borders on the tray prints at low developing temp where pristine virgin white! Same paper! And it is brand new. I wonder if it is the process...the tray was developer to blix...that's it... JOBO is 100 degree 30 second prewash then 1 min dev, then 30 second Kodak indicator stop bath then 30 second wash, and 1 minute blix. all solutions in tray are 500ml, jobo I use 200ml in the tank that is meant for 1 11x14 or 2 8x10, but I only do 1 8x10 at a time right now. I am an electronics engineer so I know the importance of consistency. All jobo temps are 100 degrees 1 minute and drain last 10 seconds.
I like the tray processing since borders are ultra white. One thing I noticed is that my colors don't seem to pop. They always seem like they are a bit old and dull. everything is new.

Some food for thoughts:

- general: 60s @100 F is out of spec for RA4; spec is 45s @ 95 F, better stick too it; also, make sure you understand how temperature control works on the CPE2: Your actual processing temperature is the stabilized temperature of the processing liquids in the small clear plastic graduates; the temperature of either the water jacket, the 600ml storage bottles or the temp setting of the knob on the control panel can be several degrees off your actual processing temperature and is irrelevant; adequate pre-heat of the drum is of course necessary
- borders: you might have some sort very subtle light induced or paper age related fogging problem that does not show in tray processing because you are underdeveloping ever so slightly (without knowing), but shows when you "overdevelop" in the Jobo for 60s @100 F
- borders: I assume the tray vs. drum comparison wasn't done on the same day, so again look for any differences in outside factors that may have contributed
- borders: Kodak EP paper has slightly duller whites than Fuji CA, so do not compare different brands of paper
- lab vs. own prints: There are several varities of Fuji CA, the one you use might not be the same as the one your lab uses
- lab vs. own prints: lab prints from scans are usually boosted in color before printing, so they do not make a good reference point

mklw1954 · Jan 23, 2015

I would not use old paper, the Kodak Endura mentioned, as unknown and variable color shifts will prevent you from establishing consistent color filtration settings. I tried that once and stick to fresh Fuji Crystal Archive II.

bvy · Jan 23, 2015

mnemosyne said:
- lab vs. own prints: lab prints from scans are usually boosted in color before printing, so they do not make a good reference point

This is a good point, and it's probably a futile exercise to use a lab-produced print made from a scan as a target or reference. I also had my doubts that Fuji Crystal Archive was capable of saturated (garish) colors. And then I printed some cross-processed Ektachrome...

DREW WILEY · Jan 23, 2015

Ever see those highly saturated shots made by big laser printers from slides? It's generally the same CAII paper you can use with your enlarger. And optical prints are capable of just as much dye saturation as the digital ones. In fact, you might get better results. But there is
obviously a different workflow, and there is more to it than just wiggling a mouse of punching a keyboard. I've placed gloss Fuji RA4 prints
side by side with Cibachromes, and people couldn't tell the difference. Of course, a white versus black border is a dead giveaway; but in
terms of the image colors per se, they couldn't discern a loss in impact. Now I'm not commending overtly saturated colors, and personally
hate it when photographers can't differentiate between color and "colorful" in the sense of sheer visual noise. This is just an example of how flexible certain RA4 papers can be in a darkroom setting. Most photographers have just forgotten a lot of tricks, or just want to be lazy
and not learn any advanced printing skills. That's fine. You can take this stuff as far as you wish. But it's an utter myth that digital workflow is inherently superior, or leads to superior results, visually. It just works in a different manner, and in this point in history is getting to be the only convenient way to print chromes, via scanning. But when it come to working with color neg film, scanning and post processing actually introduces certain unnecessary potholes. But learning to do anything well takes some commitment.

markd514 · Jan 23, 2015

mnemosyne said:
Some food for thoughts:

- general: 60s @100 F is out of spec for RA4; spec is 45s @ 95 F, better stick too it; also, make sure you understand how temperature control works on the CPE2: Your actual processing temperature is the stabilized temperature of the processing liquids in the small clear plastic graduates; the temperature of either the water jacket, the 600ml storage bottles or the temp setting of the knob on the control panel can be several degrees off your actual processing temperature and is irrelevant; adequate pre-heat of the drum is of course necessary
- borders: you might have some sort very subtle light induced or paper age related fogging problem that does not show in tray processing because you are underdeveloping ever so slightly (without knowing), but shows when you "overdevelop" in the Jobo for 60s @100 F
- borders: I assume the tray vs. drum comparison wasn't done on the same day, so again look for any differences in outside factors that may have contributed
- borders: Kodak EP paper has slightly duller whites than Fuji CA, so do not compare different brands of paper
- lab vs. own prints: There are several varities of Fuji CA, the one you use might not be the same as the one your lab uses
- lab vs. own prints: lab prints from scans are usually boosted in color before printing, so they do not make a good reference point

Yes, I was starting to think the scanned photo probably has a degree of artificial processing in it to saturate colors. I don't remember evergreens being so bright green.

markd514 · Jan 23, 2015

Even though my whites seemed ok, I was able to make the green come out by adding magenta. The overall magenta did not seem to change but the greens certainly did pop. I don't have a spare filter set to view my prints through, but I did notice that I could put an empty negative carrier in the dichro head, and dial in the correct color with my print beneath until it appears correct. You can definitely see the relationships, and how the green that once popped mutes when adding yellow or cyan. Very cool stuff!

Photo Engineer · Jan 23, 2015

mnemosyne, 1' at 100F works fine with RA-RT developer replenisher and no starter. It is out of spec, but just fine. I've used it for years and years since RA4 came out.

And the proper color balance is often critical to making good saturated colors.

The last I checked, both Endura and Fuji had almost the same whites, but keeping could mess either one of them up.

PE

DREW WILEY · Jan 23, 2015

Don't forget that different specific films have somewhat different color personalities. You simply cannot expect a film engineered for the portrait market to be capable of being equally balanced in every compass point of saturation. Ektar, by contrast, can be if you know how
and understand correct color-temp exposure in the first place; but it's not the best candidate for taking pictures of teenagers with bright zits. There's more to this than just latitude or overall contrast. That's why I really recommend starting with a master neg of each or your chosen films, taken of something specifically designed to handle these kinds of problems, like a MacBeath color checker chart (I think the marketing name of this product has since changed, but it's the same thing). You'll have a neutral gray scale as well as very carefully balanced primary and secondary hues. When everything "sings", and not just one color patch here or there, then you will have essentially practiced your chords on the piano and can move ahead with more confidence. But a piano is not is harpsichord, is not a pipe organ. Each instrument is a little different, just like each film and paper combination is.

Bob Carnie · Jan 23, 2015

I have Fuji flex murals printed on Chromira PS work by myself hanging right now beside Cibachrome printed by myself on enlarger. They are in the Land Exhibit here at the Dylan Ellis Gallery.

Very difficult to tell the difference, basically the emulsion looks different , both papers exhibit same colour gamut.

Nothing wrong or different with laser prints(Lambda ) or led prints(Chromira) or tungstan filement(durst enlarger).. basically it all boils down to a good operator who understands colour Theory, has a good eye and
is patient and willing to follow the manufactures recommondations... They are in place for a reason you know!!!

DREW WILEY · Jan 23, 2015

Fujiflex is certainly kinder to the wallet and plumbing than Ciba. Time will tell if it's actually more UV-resistant on display. But I've never been
able to successfully static-mount it in my climate, which was an exceptionally elegant way of displaying moderate-sized Cibas.

Color balancing is impossible!

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