Color balancing is impossible!

[markd514]

I got back into color processing and I am using a jobo cpe2. Works well. I have a beseler 45 dichro.

I have professionally developed negatives from a roll of film with professionally done prints although I am sure the negatives where scanned prior.
The prints are perfect in balance!
I went through 15 8x10s already and cant balance the color! It is a group of family members standing indoors in front of a gray stone fireplace with white walls, and a few white tshirts. When i get the yellowish or blue out of the walls and tshirts, the gray stone fireplace mantle and beige carpet are magenta. I am ready to give up. Tried every combo and i cant get like the professionally done print..it is spot on!! I tried cutting back magenta, then yellow, then both subtract and add..ugh!
I need a good print so I can program my analyser so I dont have to go through this again. How do the labs do it? There has to be a method that works.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Your process may be far enough away from the standard process that it introduces crossovers that will make color balancing impossible.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Start with everything that touches the chemicals clean, really clean. Mix the chemical fresh following directions exactly.

 

[bvy]

Make a test print of any filtration today. Put everything away. Come back in a day or two and try to make the exact same print (same filtration, exposure, developer time and temperature, everything). Do they match? If not, you're chasing your tail and may have to work on making your process consistent.

 

[markd514]

All brand new kodak RA. Brand new fuji crystal archive. Everything is clean.
I use 30 second prewet
60 second developer
30 second stop (indicator stop from B and W..same strength)
30 second wash
60 second blix
3 minute tray wash
All liquids from start to finish are 95 degrees.

 

[Mr Bill]

I have professionally developed negatives from a roll of film with professionally done prints although I am sure the negatives where scanned prior. The prints are perfect in balance! I went through 15 8x10s already and cant balance the color!

Hi, something to keep in mind - since the lab printed from scans, there's no way to know how much manipulation was done. Said differently, you don't really know if it is possible to get perfect color on a straight optical print. Perhaps it IS possible, and the problem is on your end, but it's hard to know for sure.

I would be suspicious that it's a problematic negative since you say it's an indoor group shot. If it was not professionally lit so as to overpower ambient light sources, various ambient light colors may be coming into play.

How do the labs do it? There has to be a method that works.

I've spent quite a bit of time with high volume pro lab work, and kinda' know my way around this sort of thing. To start with, a pro lab already knows that their print process is nailed down. They would know that the developing time and temperature meets the process specs, and that the activity level is proper based on running pre-exposed test strips from the manufacturer (aka, process control strips), and that they are using a compatible (with the film) paper. Once the lab makes a reasonably balanced test print, they can presume that any color discrepancies are faults with the negative. I doubt that you can be so confident in your process, so it's hard to know for sure where the problem is.

If I were in your shoes, I think I'd be inclined to shoot my own reference negatives. I'd use a known-good film, meaning a fairly fresh pro-level film (older film is fine, as long as you know that the storage conditions were ok). I'd shoot some portraits under a controlled lighting situation, perhaps under studio lighting conditions or outdoors with reflectors, etc. Then you have to know that the film is properly processed; ideally the lab could show you a current plot of control strips (and explain what it means). This ought to give you some good reference negatives, and you can test your printing process with these negs.

If the lab that processed your film is nearby, you might stop by and talk with them about the situation. Perhaps they'll evaluate some of your prints for you (be suitably humble and thankful). Perhaps the'll offer to give you some old reference negs they have laying around somewhere, or who knows what. Best wishes.

 

[markd514]

Thanks Mr Bill

 

[Athiril]

All brand new kodak RA. Brand new fuji crystal archive. Everything is clean.
I use 30 second prewet
60 second developer
30 second stop (indicator stop from B and W..same strength)
30 second wash
60 second blix
3 minute tray wash
All liquids from start to finish are 95 degrees.

Here is what happens to Fuji Crystal Archive II paper.

A grey strip is printed from base exposure, it is read by densitometer, and the paper is calibrated, either by the digital image values, or by the exposure values at the exposure head.

The colour balance on the paper on Fuji is different to Kodak iirc, and when I looked at a 'raw' print of a scale last, colour balance swung from one way to the other on Fuji. Though that could have been other issues. Maybe try taking a b&w photo of a grey scale card (just print one up or something or display it on the screen, it'll be b&w on the b&w film), and try printing that onto your paper.

See if the grey scale has the same colour cast from highlights to shadows.

 

[gopher]

here is a foolproof way to get precise color balance, and a technique I have been using successfully for many years: get a reflection densitometer. With every roll of film you shoot, include a picture of a grey card. With the reflection densitometer read the grey card on the print; adjust the color balance until you read approximately 0.80/0.80/0.80 for the cyan magenta and yellow.

 

[DREW WILEY]

You have given us nothing specific about the film itself, or the actual exposure conditions. That's just the starting point.

 

[RedSun]

This is what I just said with another thread. Sry for repeating.

For beginner RA-4 printing, I would say color balancing is a daunting experience. The quality control of color paper, chemicals and processing is all critical. Also, since we do not print on a regular basis, we often have to learn and pick up again.

I believe labs use processor to scan the negative, find the auto color balancing, then set the color filtration and make the exposure. It is an automated process and the result is quite satisfactory.

The closest we can do in our darkroom is the color processor, such as Jobo ColorStar. But it also requires experience. But it is still easier to do than using purely human eyes.

Here I'm not to argue that color processor is better than 20 years in darkroom. But for beginners, that is definitely another way to do, or at least to try.

 

[Rick A]

Always include a shot of a gray card in at least one photo. I used to include a shot of one at the beginning, mid roll and end of my day on 70mm long roll portrait camera.

 

[pentaxuser]

markd514, you might want to show us scans of your prints and what Y&M you used for each.

pentaxuser

 

[DREW WILEY]

Back when I printed mostly Cibachrome for personal use, but often farmed my RA4 prints to a lab (unless someone was willing to pay me
top bucks for those too), there is one rule I religiously followed: Include that gray card in at least one representative frame. That made life a lot easier for everybody. Even better, when learning to color balance your own paper, make a master neg of something like a MacBeath color
checker chart under ideal exposure and color temp conditions. It's a way better tool than just grabbing some colorful chips off a paint store
rack, and well worth the investment. Master a print of this first, and everything else colorhead-wise will go smoothly.

 

[Tom Taylor]

Color RA-4 printing is pretty straight forward and consists of these simple steps:

1. Start with a filter pack that you have determined is the correct pack for your paper. In the event that you haven't made that determination, then start with the papers manufacture recommendation. It will be in the ball park.

2. Determine the correct density (i.e., exposure) for your image and any dodging or burning to be done. Dodging and/or burning will change the color balance in those areas.

3. Once the correct density is determined look at the color balance: Look at skin tones, pastel colors, and neutral grey tones and ignore highly saturated colors and obvious color casts. Note: When you change filter pack setting the print exposure changes so apply the filter factor to the exposure time. Example: Good density was 10 seconds. After evaluating color you add 20 magenta. The filter factor for 20M is 1.5 so you multiply the original exposure time by 1.5 and the resulting exposure now becomes 15 seconds instead of the original 10.

Thomas

 

[RedSun]

Your #3 is not "straight forward" simple, particularly for beginners. The three colors are inter-related to one another. There are color filter preview filters, but I've not found them very useful.

Pls do not tell beginners to use human eyes to do the balancing..... This is what the OP was talking about.....

 

[markd514]

That is a great idea about shooting a grey scale with the film first.
I work in electronics, and I use video projectors all the time. No 2 look alike side by side. When I color balance them, its easy to see the whites look perfect while the gray takes on a red cast. It certainly is a daunting task. I am going to bale and use a different negative!

 

[markd514]

Always include a shot of a gray card in at least one photo. I used to include a shot of one at the beginning, mid roll and end of my day on 70mm long roll portrait camera.

Agree! thanks
I want color bars, a gray scale, and a white, gray, and black card ultimately!

 

[markd514]

Your #3 is not "straight forward" simple, particularly for beginners. The three colors are inter-related to one another. There are color filter preview filters, but I've not found them very useful.

Pls do not tell beginners to use human eyes to do the balancing..... This is what the OP was talking about.....

I agree. I do think I have a good sensitivity for hue and colors, I am starting to see that my frustration is because I am not positive if the image is too magenta or too red. Or too green vs too blue or cyan. I think to myself, ok if it is too green, then remove magenta..if too cyan remove equal parts magenta or yellow...easy to make a mistake. I went up and down with the magenta/yellow ratio for example tried 25/15, then 35/25, and 45/35. Interesting, but no perfect white with neutral gray.

 

[Mr Bill]

I'm too far past that to remember what it's like learning to color correct, but one of the guys I worked with, who used to help train new color correctors told me that they almost invariably mistake cyan for blue, and magenta for red. In other words, what they have learned to be the color blue, is actually more like the cyan dye of a photo. Similarly, what they learned to be the color red is actually more like magenta dye.

In my opinion, since you recognize this uncertainty, the best thing you could do is to print what they call a color ring-around. Using a good reference neg, you print a "normal," then a couple increments of each color. For example, you might print a cyan-red series like so: 20 cyan, 10 cyan, normal, 10 red, and 20 red (note that a plus cyan print can also be called a minus red). Do the same for a magenta-green series and a yellow-blue series. Don't use a full sheet of paper, just a narrow strip through the important part of the negative. You can label these, then mount on a board for reference. It's a fair amount of work doing it manually, but it will certainly help settle the confusion as to which color is which.

By the way, to keep from mistakenly going the wrong way with corrections, you might want to use a rule I learned as a kid - it's to "always do the wrong thing." For example, if a print is too blue the ideal correction, although it seems "wrong" is to add blue to the filter pack. But since we don't generally work with blue filters, you do the equivalent thing, which is to remove yellow filtration (to keep track of the equivalent actions, you can draw three overlapping circles labeled red, green, and blue, where the overlapping sections between any two colors are cyan (opposite red), magenta (opposite green), and yellow (opposite blue).

I sort of explained some filter interactions in another thread, here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists) if you have any interest in that sort of thing.

Again, best wishes with your journey into printing.

 

[RedSun]

The color printing ring-around is a good idea to learn the basics. But it is extremely time consuming. Most of the color prints are processed with color processors. From loading to a complete run, it takes some time. The difficult part is to dry the drum. Hair dryer, whatever it is. I do not know how many prints you can get one evening.

BW printing has no such problem. After contrast is set, you just need to determine the density. With open tray, you can nail it down fairly quickly.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I absolutely swear by colour ring arounds... if done properly and mounted in a colour correction area they are the best reference you can get.

I made them as school , and at every job site where I was colour correcting and I make any apprentice printer working with me make one.

They can easily be made by hand, on enlarger , and are even easier to make digitally via PS.

 

[RPC]

The color printing ring-around is a good idea to learn the basics. But it is extremely time consuming. Most of the color prints are processed with color processors. From loading to a complete run, it takes some time. The difficult part is to dry the drum. Hair dryer, whatever it is. I do not know how many prints you can get one evening.

BW printing has no such problem. After contrast is set, you just need to determine the density. With open tray, you can nail it down fairly quickly.

This is why I gave up using drums and switched to RA-4 printing in trays at room temperature. Overall productivity is much faster, and the learning curve for newbies is faster and less wasteful since you can make small test prints. In the OP's case, he has wasted 15 sheets of 8x10 paper as well as the chemistry.

 

[RedSun]

When I first started, I had the color ring-around from at least three books. Then I printed some other excellent ring-around templates. I had three sets of color preview filters. But all of them had little use.

I first used the recommended filtration. Then a few tries to get the "ball-park" density. Then I changed the filtration with the aids of preview filter and color ring-around. But I was getting nowhere, or even worse. All of the testings were done on a Jobo. I used the CPE instead of the large CPP/CPA, just to save some energy. But I can say that drying the drums was not a pleasant thing to do. I had 3 test drums to rotate and 3 print drums to use for 5x7 prints. I did put in two test strips or so. But it was still very time consuming.

The problem is that I do not print color regularly. So a rough start is very discouraging. If I'm to print color again tonight, I still have to spend a couple of days to get some feelings of the chemicals, paper and the negatives....

For pure beginner, the learning curve is much steeper. I have plenty RA chemicals and roll paper, but I do not want to spend many over-nights and have little production.

 

[bvy]

This is why I gave up using drums and switched to RA-4 printing in trays at room temperature. Overall productivity is much faster, and the learning curve for newbies is faster and less wasteful since you can make small test prints. In the OP's case, he has wasted 15 sheets of 8x10 paper as well as the chemistry.

The Unicolor 8x10 drum (and possibly others) will process four 4x5 prints. I routinely make 4x5 test prints using a drum.