Collodion drying times?

awty · Aug 9, 2020

Hi can someone tell me the typical time it would take before collodion would start to solidify on a glass plate at 20C?
I've tried 3 times to coat a 4x5 glass plate with store bought collodion mixture and each time it has started to solidify in 10 seconds. Not sure what Im doing wrong. Ive poured it direct from the bottle, poured it quickly onto a plastic 5ml measuring spoon and quickly on the plate and still it is still hardening before I can tilt it to the last corner.
All the vids I've seen seem to have ample time.
If 10 seconds is normal I will need to practice a bit more to speed things up.
Thanks

thuggins · Aug 9, 2020

The collodion should pour freely and flow to coat the plate. It certainly took me more than 10 seconds when I was pouring plates.

But your terminology indicates a lack of clarity that may be contributing. A wet plate must be poured, exposed and developed before it is "dry". That may be about 15 mins or so at the temperture you indicate. But it is fairly "hard" when it comes out of the nitrate bath. Otherwise the coating would run off the plate when you put it in the camera.

AgX · Aug 9, 2020

But in his first sentence the OP writes "solidifies", which not necessarily means dry.

But yes, one has to differenciate bewteen set and dry (introducing a 3rd term...)

koraks · Aug 9, 2020

awty said:
Hi can someone tell me the typical time it would take before collodion would start to solidify on a glass plate at 20C?

It depends a lot on the composition and the age of the collodion mix. Usually it's around 20-30 seconds for me.

awty · Aug 9, 2020

AgX said:
But in his first sentence the OP writes "solidifies", which not necessarily means dry.

But yes, one has to differenciate bewteen set and dry (introducing a 3rd term...)

I'm not up to date with the current wet plate jargon.
I pour more than adequate amount of pre mixed by reputable supplier collodion onto the middle of the plate, quickly angle to the top corners within a few seconds. It is very runny low viscosity, but by the time I reach the third corner it viscosity is increased rapidly and cant get it to the forth corner before it solidifies.
This around 10 seconds.
Just trying to establish whether it is me or the chemistry or both.
Will do another more controlled test and have further dialogue with the supplier.
Just wanted to establish the average time it would take to coat a 4x5 plate.
Sorry for any confusion.
Thanks.

awty · Aug 9, 2020

koraks said:
It depends a lot on the composition and the age of the collodion mix. Usually it's around 20-30 seconds for me.

Thanks, thats what I wanted to know. I bought everything fresh and premixed by the supplier to try and eliminate as much user error as possible, just wanted to establish if I was missing something..

removedacct1 · Aug 9, 2020

It is my impression that if the atmospheric temperature is 20C and you can't pour a 4x5 inch plate before the collodion sets, there's something wrong. Are you pouring the plate in an area protected from air movement? Are you pouring enough collodion that makes a puddle that comes within half an inch of the 4" sides? The puddle should almost reach the sides before you start to tilt to the corners. If the volume is insufficient, then you're going to have trouble getting to the corners before it starts to set. This is especially true if the temperatures are warm (apparently not in this case) and if there is a lot of air movement where you're pouring the plate.

In my experience, even in warmer weather, I have at least 30 seconds to get the plate poured and the surplus drained off before anything starts to set. I can do a video of the process if that'd be helpful.

awty · Aug 9, 2020

paulbarden said:
It is my impression that if the atmospheric temperature is 20C and you can't pour a 4x5 inch plate before the collodion sets, there's something wrong. Are you pouring the plate in an area protected from air movement? Are you pouring enough collodion that makes a puddle that comes within half an inch of the 4" sides? The puddle should almost reach the sides before you start to tilt to the corners. If the volume is insufficient, then you're going to have trouble getting to the corners before it starts to set. This is especially true if the temperatures are warm (apparently not in this case) and if there is a lot of air movement where you're pouring the plate.

In my experience, even in warmer weather, I have at least 30 seconds to get the plate poured and the surplus drained off before anything starts to set. I can do a video of the process if that'd be helpful.

It was probably just something I was doing wrong in all the haste. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a fundamental error I wasn't aware of with temperature and drying time. I do it in a small dark room which is around 16C at the moment. brrrr which is freezing for here.
I will try again when I have some more time and make sure I factor in all suggestions I have received.......be no challenge if you got everything right the first time.

This is how I expected it to go.

J 3 · Aug 10, 2020

Assuming nothing is wrong with the collodion, the main factor is the percentage ether vs alcohol in the mix. Not being able to get the collodion to pour to all 4 corners sounds like a very high ether mix. These become unusable at too high a temperature.

awty · Aug 11, 2020

I did a few more today, if I pour plenty on and can coat in ten seconds its all good, although I spill a bit.
Checked all the temperatures in the darkroom was around 20C. After about 15 seconds its starting to congeal.
Now I have a new problem, all the plates I did today came out milky white. Not sure what is causing this. Wasnt a problem the other day when I tried. So I have an image that looks like it hadnt developed fully.
The one on the left I did today, one on the right which seem to of come out ok apart from the coating lifting was done the other day.

koraks · Aug 11, 2020

That image isn't fixed. What do you use for a fixer? I have good experiences with plain old rapid fixer; much faster and longer lived than the plain thiosulfate all the manuals make you use...

Your collodion not adhering may be related to the rapid drying issue, but it may also signal that your glass plates aren't clean. It takes thorough scrubbing with calcium carbonate to get all the grease off.

Have you tried diluting a bit of collision with some alcohol? I'd try something like 3 parts collodion to 1 part alcohol and see if that improves things. If you use only a small amount of collodion for this you still have the majority remaining in it's original state.
Given your experiences so far I'm pretty sure there's a problem with your collodion mix. It might be mixed wrong, or maybe it's old or contaminated with something.

awty · Aug 11, 2020

koraks said:
That image isn't fixed. What do you use for a fixer? I have good experiences with plain old rapid fixer; much faster and longer lived than the plain thiosulfate all the manuals make you use...

Your collodion not adhering may be related to the rapid drying issue, but it may also signal that your glass plates aren't clean. It takes thorough scrubbing with calcium carbonate to get all the grease off.

Have you tried diluting a bit of collision with some alcohol? I'd try something like 3 parts collodion to 1 part alcohol and see if that improves things. If you use only a small amount of collodion for this you still have the majority remaining in it's original state.
Given your experiences so far I'm pretty sure there's a problem with your collodion mix. It might be mixed wrong, or maybe it's old or contaminated with something.

Yes you are bang on, just realized my self and went back in the darkroom and tried some rapid and all was good. The thio I used last time has slowed dramatically even though I bottled it air tight straight after.
The plates I did today I spent much more time cleaning and the collodion stuck much better.
Its not too bad now, but in summer I will need to find a formula that gives me more time. I just bought pre mixed so I can get a handle on the process. Half the year the average temp is 30C..
Thanks for helping me trouble shoot.

koraks · Aug 11, 2020

Good to hear! I stopped using plain thiosulfate as soon as I figured out that rapid fixer works a lot better. I suspect people are worried about loss of some of the silver image, but I never observed anything of the kind. It just works.

Cleaning is a chore, but as you're finding out, it's also a necessity. Nothing as frustrating as witnessing the collodion drifting away during development...Note that not only cleaning determines how tough the collodion is. High-alcohol content collodions tend to be thin and lift fairly easily as well, and older collodion tends to create some more brittle films that also are more prone to damage than fresh collodion. All of my wet plate stuff has been done with DIY Poe Boy 'no ether' collodion, which is a compromised collodion in all respects, and it's pretty frustrating to work with most of the time.

awty · Aug 11, 2020

koraks said:
Good to hear! I stopped using plain thiosulfate as soon as I figured out that rapid fixer works a lot better. I suspect people are worried about loss of some of the silver image, but I never observed anything of the kind. It just works.

Cleaning is a chore, but as you're finding out, it's also a necessity. Nothing as frustrating as witnessing the collodion drifting away during development...Note that not only cleaning determines how tough the collodion is. High-alcohol content collodions tend to be thin and lift fairly easily as well, and older collodion tends to create some more brittle films that also are more prone to damage than fresh collodion. All of my wet plate stuff has been done with DIY Poe Boy 'no ether' collodion, which is a compromised collodion in all respects, and it's pretty frustrating to work with most of the time.

I think I was just a bit too worked up, thinking WTF have I done wrong now, once I sat down and thought about I realized it was just the fixer.
Whats your "poe boy" formula? Will be trying that one out later down the track.
Also is it ok to add a drop of photo flow to the developer before pouring onto the plate? seems to need it, but better check before hand.

I think I will enjoy the process once I am more comfortable in what Im doing. The initial part is very fast, but its great to get a picture in a few minutes. I love not being in total control and little (or large) faults become part of the picture, no two being quite the same, little individuals, like people.

removedacct1 · Aug 11, 2020

awty said:
Whats your "poe boy" formula? Will be trying that one out later down the track.
Also is it ok to add a drop of photo flow to the developer before pouring onto the plate? seems to need it, but better check before hand.

Don't waste your time trying to learn wet plate by using a recipe like Poe Boy, which is exponentially more difficult to master because of its lack of ether (Ether makes collodion flow more easily, the alcohol component only helps slow the evaporation rate. Too much alcohol and too little ether makes a difficult-to-use collodion that is far more fragile and prone to flaws). You're just asking for more trouble if you start effing around with inferior mixes like Poe Boy. Save yourself some grief.

You can try Photo-Flo in the developer, but I am pretty sure that will corrupt the developer. If you're having a hard time learning to flow the developer on the plate quickly and evenly, then make a "helper tray" instead. Google it.
Alternatively, use standard plastic darkroom trays. You load a volume of developer into the tray, tilt the tray so that it all runs up one end, then place your exposed plate in the tray (collodion up, obviously), then quickly (but gently) tip the tray back to flow the developer over the plate. Beginners often find this far easier than learning to flow developer while holding the plate in your hand.

By the way, Paul - are you cleaning the glass properly before pouring collodion? You shouldn't be seeing collodion lifting off the glass if the plate is properly cleaned. How are you doing it?

awty · Aug 11, 2020

paulbarden said:
Don't waste your time trying to learn wet plate by using a recipe like Poe Boy, which is exponentially more difficult to master because of its lack of ether (Ether makes collodion flow more easily, the alcohol component only helps slow the evaporation rate. Too much alcohol and too little ether makes a difficult-to-use collodion that is far more fragile and prone to flaws). You're just asking for more trouble if you start effing around with inferior mixes like Poe Boy. Save yourself some grief.

You can try Photo-Flo in the developer, but I am pretty sure that will corrupt the developer. If you're having a hard time learning to flow the developer on the plate quickly and evenly, then make a "helper tray" instead. Google it.
Alternatively, use standard plastic darkroom trays. You load a volume of developer into the tray, tilt the tray so that it all runs up one end, then place your exposed plate in the tray (collodion up, obviously), then quickly (but gently) tip the tray back to flow the developer over the plate. Beginners often find this far easier than learning to flow developer while holding the plate in your hand.

By the way, Paul - are you cleaning the glass properly before pouring collodion? You shouldn't be seeing collodion lifting off the glass if the plate is properly cleaned. How are you doing it?

I said I will do poe boy and other formulas later down the track. Just doing the premix for now until I get a handle on the basics. I will need to be able to make plates at higher temperatures in coming months, that may involve using a fridge to pre cool or a slower drying formula or both, I dont know, how do you manage higher temperatures?
The exposed plate seems to repel the developer making it hard to coat evenly, thought a wetting agent added just before use might help. I do have a snug 4x5 bakelite photo tray Ive used. Will check out a few more methods to see if I can improve.
The last couple of plates had better coverage and less peel, Ive started to use window cleaner, then when it looks clean go over again with alcohol, then use a bulb blower to remove dust. Dark room is always enclosed and has a extractor fan, so doesn't accumulate much dust. Will look at other methods to improve.
I find I need to learn by mistake, just like my first marriage.......the trick is not to keep making the same mistakes.
Thanks for your help.

removedacct1 · Aug 11, 2020

awty said:
I said I will do poe boy and other formulas later down the track. Just doing the premix for now until I get a handle on the basics. I will need to be able to make plates at higher temperatures in coming months, that may involve using a fridge to pre cool or a slower drying formula or both, I dont know, how do you manage higher temperatures?
The exposed plate seems to repel the developer making it hard to coat evenly, thought a wetting agent added just before use might help. I do have a snug 4x5 bakelite photo tray Ive used. Will check out a few more methods to see if I can improve.
The last couple of plates had better coverage and less peel, Ive started to use window cleaner, then when it looks clean go over again with alcohol, then use a bulb blower to remove dust. Dark room is always enclosed and has a extractor fan, so doesn't accumulate much dust. Will look at other methods to improve.
I find I need to learn by mistake, just like my first marriage.......the trick is not to keep making the same mistakes.
Thanks for your help.

The proper way to clean a glass plate for collodion is to scour it with a thin paste of water, alcohol, and calcium carbonate at a ratio of 1:1:1
Simply wiping it clean with window cleaner and alcohol is insufficient. You'll have persistent problems getting collodion to stick unless you adopt the calcium carbonate scrub technique. You see, what has to happen is that the glass must be lightly etched by a gentle abrasive to make collodion adhere.

Regarding developer flow: if you are having difficulty getting the developer to flow on, and stay on the plate, then add a few ml. more alcohol to the developer. The alcohol acts as a surfactant to help with flow and spread of the developer. Why experiment with materials that may just give you problems when the action of additional alcohol is a well-known solution to the problem?

As for hot days, I work early in the day and when temps exceed 85F, I quit for the day. That usually means working for a couple hours as soon after daybreak as I can start. The extra effort required to work in hot weather isn't worth it (for me).

awty · Aug 12, 2020

paulbarden said:
The proper way to clean a glass plate for collodion is to scour it with a thin paste of water, alcohol, and calcium carbonate at a ratio of 1:1:1
Simply wiping it clean with window cleaner and alcohol is insufficient. You'll have persistent problems getting collodion to stick unless you adopt the calcium carbonate scrub technique. You see, what has to happen is that the glass must be lightly etched by a gentle abrasive to make collodion adhere.

Regarding developer flow: if you are having difficulty getting the developer to flow on, and stay on the plate, then add a few ml. more alcohol to the developer. The alcohol acts as a surfactant to help with flow and spread of the developer. Why experiment with materials that may just give you problems when the action of additional alcohol is a well-known solution to the problem?

As for hot days, I work early in the day and when temps exceed 85F, I quit for the day. That usually means working for a couple hours as soon after daybreak as I can start. The extra effort required to work in hot weather isn't worth it (for me).

Thanks again.
Ordered some calcium carbonate and will add a ml of alcohol to the developer to see what that does.
Lund Photographics and a few others sites are quite good on the basics. I get a better understanding of the process by looking at some tutorials, then doing some then going back over it again......and asking question when Im not too sure.
time.https://www.lundphotographics.com/index.php/blog/
Its too hot and humid in summer to do much more than drink beer any how, will cross that bridge when I get to it.

koraks · Aug 12, 2020

paulbarden said:
Don't waste your time trying to learn wet plate by using a recipe like Poe Boy, which is exponentially more difficult to master because of its lack of ether (Ether makes collodion flow more easily, the alcohol component only helps slow the evaporation rate.

I agree. Poe Boy tends to coat in a very thin, fragile layer at the best of times. It's also a phenomenally slow collodion, as evidenced by a test Borut Peterlin did some time ago. Have a look on his blog for a video about it. He found Poe Boy very disappointing. It's the only collodion I've used myself, and surely, it has many limitations. I haven't gotten around to ordering some ether and salts to make better recipes; most of the time I shoot and print silver gelatin anyway (color & b&w), so collodion is really a side-show for me.

As to the cleaning: I found the alcohol to not be a necessity in the carbonate/water mix. What I do is just keep a shot glass of dry calcium carbonate at hand, soak a clean rag in water, dip it into the carbonate and then start working on the plate. It doesn't take a lot of carbonate to clean a plate. You'll know it's clean when the carbonate/water mix on the plate disperses evenly and when the rinse water sheets off without ripples. Make sure to wipe off the remaining carbonate from the plate with a nitrile gloved finger; a very thin, milky film of the stuff tends to remain on the plate otherwise and it'll fog the image severely.
It may sound complicated, but once you get the hang of it, it's a very straightforward, one-minute job to clean a plate.

removedacct1 · Aug 12, 2020

awty said:
Thanks again.
Ordered some calcium carbonate and will add a ml of alcohol to the developer to see what that does.
Lund Photographics and a few others sites are quite good on the basics. I get a better understanding of the process by looking at some tutorials, then doing some then going back over it again......and asking question when Im not too sure.
time.https://www.lundphotographics.com/index.php/blog/
Its too hot and humid in summer to do much more than drink beer any how, will cross that bridge when I get to it.

Paul, I suggest getting yourself a copy of Quinn Jacobson's 2020 version of Chemical Pictures. Once you've read it over, there won't be any unsolved mysteries left to ponder. A good book on the subject will save you a lot of time and wasted materials. I understand the desire to "find my own way" through the process, but I don't understand the need to fumble your way around known technical problems that are easily resolved by reference to the right book(s). (no judgement, just wanting to help)

removedacct1 · Aug 12, 2020

koraks said:
As to the cleaning: I found the alcohol to not be a necessity in the carbonate/water mix. What I do is just keep a shot glass of dry calcium carbonate at hand, soak a clean rag in water, dip it into the carbonate and then start working on the plate. It doesn't take a lot of carbonate to clean a plate. You'll know it's clean when the carbonate/water mix on the plate disperses evenly and when the rinse water sheets off without ripples. Make sure to wipe off the remaining carbonate from the plate with a nitrile gloved finger; a very thin, milky film of the stuff tends to remain on the plate otherwise and it'll fog the image severely.
It may sound complicated, but once you get the hang of it, it's a very straightforward, one-minute job to clean a plate.

Excellent advice.

Two23 · Aug 12, 2020

I shoot tins but can still comment. I've never had much luck with Po Boy and have settled on Old Workhorse. It's predictable and reliable. I work in tempertures from 10 to 95 F degrees. Lately it's been around 90F most of the time, which is getting pretty hot. For starters, I keep my collodion and developer in an insulated bag with blue ice. Developer especially must be kept cool. I did have some trouble with collodion beginning to congeal on me before I got the plate covered (8x10) when it's hot, but added a little bit more alcohol. I also like to top off the collodion bottle when it gets to half full. This restores the ether & alcohol solvents in it. As for the glass, yes it must be squeaky clean--I mean so clean it squeaks when you rub it. Another thing you can try is subbing the edges with filtered egg white after cleaning and let that dry before you coat the plate. The key to getting an even spread of developer is to pour it quickly but gently and then aggressively shake the plate back & forth and front to back to make sure it covers everywhere quickly.

Kent in SD

koraks · Aug 13, 2020

Two23 said:
Another thing you can try is subbing the edges with filtered egg white after cleaning and let that dry before you coat the plate.

Yes, but I'd only do this as a last resort. It creates some quite ugly edges in my opinion, and with a decent collodion and clean plates, it shouldn't be necessary.

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