cold tone in Pd print

marko_trebusak · Nov 12, 2010

Hi,

I'm experimenting with multiple hits Pd printing at the moment (thank you Dave) with Na2 method. And beside increase in Dmax, I would also like to achieve duotone effect. I'm quite pleased with warm tone of sodium oxalate at higher temperature, so now I'm searching for solution for cold tones. I tried developing with ammonium citrate for this, and while with fresh developer results are in the right direction, I don't think I'm prepared to throw away developer after each session. I tried selenium toning, but with no convincing results. On my list for experimentation are sizing with gelatin and polyvinyl alcohol in sensitizer. So did anyone out there experimented with alternative developers (Dick Arentz in his book mentions two) or some other trickery?

Cheers,
Marko

Loris Medici · Nov 12, 2010

Do "print-out pd"(*) if you want "really" cold tones. Neutral to bluish black is very possible with print-out pd process. (Bluish black: By adding a couple of drops of gold chloride into the coating solution...)

Regards,
Loris.

(*) Print-out Pd is
a. (NH4)2[PdCl4] (14.7%, ~0.52M) + AFO (45%, ~1.05M), 1+1, (diluted Ware-Malde print-out palladium process), or
b. (NH4)2[PdCl4] (20%, ~0.7M) + AFO (60%, ~1.4M), 1+1, (original strength Ware-Malde print-out palladium process), or
c. Li2PdCl4 (13.6%, ~0.52M) + AFO (45%, ~1.05M), 1+1, (Ziatype)

(NH4)2[PdCl4]: Ammonium tetrachloropalladate
Li2PdCl4: Lithium tetrachloropalladate
AFO: Ammonium iron(III) oxalate trihydrate

BTW, you don't need a developer with print-out palladium, you just rinse and clear the paper. It's simple / uncomplicated...

marko_trebusak · Nov 13, 2010

Hi Loris,

I did Ziatypes in the past, so I know it's possible with that process, but thank you for reminding me. But now I moved to develop out Pd with Na2 method, and would like to stay with this one, if possible. I plan to make eithr gum or carbon over, if this will not work out.

Cheers,
Marko

DPVisions · Nov 13, 2010

Hi Marko,

I have had great success with gold toning to create cool toned Pd. prints. I use ammonium citrate for developer to try and keep Pd. as neutral as possible and then gold tone for 10 to 12 minutes.

I have been following the toning process outlined in Christopher James's book Alternative Photographic Processes. Bostick & Sullivan also sell the gold toner as a kit.

As an alternitive to gold, gum, or carbon you may also want to try cyanotype as a way to cool the print.

Cheers,
David

Ben Altman · Nov 13, 2010

Take a look at Ron Reeder's website. As I remember he uses the Lithium Palladium solution sensitized with Ferric Oxalate, and Na2, as a develop-out process. His images seem to come out neutral tone. Could also try B&S Cold Bath developer.

Best, Ben

Ron-san · Nov 13, 2010

Ben Altman said:
Take a look at Ron Reeder's website. As I remember he uses the Lithium Palladium solution sensitized with Ferric Oxalate, and Na2, as a develop-out process. His images seem to come out neutral tone. Could also try B&S Cold Bath developer.

Best, Ben

Thanks Ben, but in fact my palladium prints are on the warm side. The images on the website are just digital approximations of what the real prints look like. The best way I know to make a neutral or cooler toned print is to use platinum/palladium in a 1:1 ratio. But oh the current cost of platinum. Yesterday I tried adding some gold to the palladium mix (as suggested somewhere by Richard Sullivan) but it turned out spectacularly ugly. Pink highlights and neutral gray midtones and darks. Yuck. Maybe I will try the Ziatype mix that Loris suggested. But for now, mixing in platinum is the only way I know that really works to cool the image down. (btw, I have tried some of the so-called neutral tone developers and have not seen enough effect to bother). Cheers, Ron Reeder

Ben Altman · Nov 14, 2010

Thanks for the clarification, Ron.

I have made Ziatypes with some Gold added and they were fine and also a nice cool tone. That was on Crane's Platinotype, which seems to color-up less than some other papers. Fairly vicious increase of contrast, though - useful if contact printing a weak negative, but will totally mess up a normal digital negative profile - so should be used in small amounts or diluted unless that's what is needed.

Do I remember reading that the Na2 method does not work well with Pd/Pt mixtures?

Best, Ben

p.s. - don't add Gold to a Pd/Pt Ziatype mixture - only works with Pd!

donbga · Nov 14, 2010

Ben Altman said:
Thanks for the clarification, Ron.

I have made Ziatypes with some Gold added and they were fine and also a nice cool tone. That was on Crane's Platinotype, which seems to color-up less than some other papers. Fairly vicious increase of contrast, though - useful if contact printing a weak negative, but will totally mess up a normal digital negative profile - so should be used in small amounts or diluted unless that's what is needed.

Do I remember reading that the Na2 method does not work well with Pd/Pt mixtures?

Best, Ben

p.s. - don't add Gold to a Pd/Pt Ziatype mixture - only works with Pd!

NA2 is ineffective with Platinum. The double salt of NA2 gets converted to the single salt of platinum.

You can add gold to Zia solutions except to the cessium palladium salts. Gold added to CsPd creates expensive mud.

With ziatypes, experimentation is the key, except a few failures but keep notes.

Don

marko_trebusak · Nov 15, 2010

Thanks folk for your replies. Now let's try to sort this thing out:
-cold tone developers: not worth exploring
-gold toning: since I would like to retain warm tones of highlights in first layer, I don't think this is the route I would like to go, as toner will of course tone the whole print
-Pt/Pd combination: as Ron wrote, price of platinum is a bit steep at the moment

So that leaves me with either Zia or carbon/gum. Since I worked with Zia in the past, this might be the first route to explore. What bothers me still is it's incapability for predictable results and its dependence on humidity (despite Richard Sullivan's claims) for colour effects, as at the moment I'm not equipped enough to control the humidity of my working place.

Thank you for all your suggestions,
Marko

PVia · Nov 15, 2010

Ammonium citrate goes a long way in getting pure palladium closer to the neutral/middle. Try it cold (68 degrees F). You may also want to try humidifying the exposed paper before placing it into the developer bath. This can also cool off tones in many processes.

clay · Nov 15, 2010

I concur that your best, easiest approach is to use one of the POP processes with either the ammonium palladium salt or the lithium palladium salt in conjunction with ferric ammonium oxalate as the sensitizer. Just don't over-dry the paper before printing and you will get some very cold to neutral pure palladium prints.

Gold toning can be very effective in providing a cold tone print, but it is also tricky to control and not exactly cheap. It only works well with prints containing at least 1/4 platinum and with the price of both platinum and gold at all-time highs, your mistakes will not be cheap!

Ben Altman · Nov 17, 2010

marko_trebusak said:
So that leaves me with either Zia or carbon/gum. Since I worked with Zia in the past, this might be the first route to explore. What bothers me still is it's incapability for predictable results and its dependence on humidity (despite Richard Sullivan's claims) for colour effects, as at the moment I'm not equipped enough to control the humidity of my working place.

Marko

Hi Marko,

I find Ziatypes can be made a lot more consistent in varied darkroom humidity conditions by using some version of Mike Ware's humidity control techniques. I humidify the paper on a screen over a tray of warm water, covered with an inverted tray, for about 20 mins. Then after the coating dries I give it another 5 mins or so. I should probably standardize times and temperatures. Also make sure you have something impervious under the paper in the vacuum frame if you use one, and that your neg or a mylar sheet cover beyond the edges of the paper on top. Otherwise the drying during exposure can be a color-changer. Also be sure your exposure frame is not too cold.

As to your OP about multiple hit printing, I did some quick experiments with Ziatype a couple of months ago. I did see an increase in dMax and density overall, but perhaps not as much as Dave is getting with print-out.

Slightly off-topic, does anyone use the Sodium Palladium salt with Ammonium Ferric Oxalate? And are there any reasons pro or con? In a test I did this seems to work, giving a strong print-out image, but needs to be developed to be stable, otherwise it washes off in the clearing baths. Image is warmish in tone.

Ben

Loris Medici · Nov 19, 2010

Ben, IME, Na2PdCl4 (15.3%, ~0.52M) + AFO (45%, ~1.05M) (1+1) works well. BUT, it doesn't give as strong print-out as the ammonium and lithium double salts of Pd, therefore you may need a developer to intensify the image. (Sodium citrate or potassium oxalate and others should work. I can't say something about the subtle differences - if any - because I haven't tested it enough...) You may try to add a little glycerin (say... 1-2 drops per ml of coating solution?) in order to help the emulsion to hold humidity in itself...

Hope this helps,
Loris.

Ben Altman · Nov 19, 2010

Thanks, Loris. Good thought about the glycerin. Will give that a try.

Ben

cold tone in Pd print

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