cold bw film does it really make that much of a difference ?

removed account4 · Sep 23, 2014

more examples of shelf stored 10+ years out of date tmz
sat in a room temperature bag since the 1990s, and went through xrays at the airport as well.
exposed it yesterday and processed it today .. looks fine to me ...

Roger Cole · Sep 23, 2014

Are we seeing the same photos? Or was that sarcasm?

Anyway, without a comparison of similarly exposed and lighted fresh film it really doesn't mean much.

Xmas · Sep 24, 2014

It is simpler to shoot film using data sheet ISO plus s stop.
It is simpler to store film temperate and low humidity than ambient if you live in Saudi or Death Valley.
The data sheet normally says ISO and storage as each film can be different.
Autos or aircraft parked in open can easily get to 40c local to here this kills dogs and will damage film this is in England where water temps rarely reach 20C (68F).
Note we put a max thermometer in one of our aircraft's avionics racks we tractored it back inside hanger where it was normally stored when the temp got to 40.
Lock up photo shops with display windows can get hot in summer here.
'Bought' Ilford FP4+ stored in lock up shop few years past box date on box had pea soup fog. Shop owner threw it into shopping bag for free with fresh colour he knew it would be bad...
If film from old cameras or cassettes does not unwind I can't get it into a tank to develop.
I can tell the difference between a carrot just dug up and one stored a week in freezer... taste and texture.
If you freeze film you risk water ice damage.
My fridge salad tray stays at 4-5C except during power outages. Never any salad there...
Moisture will damage film immediate cept on plastic or steel reel...

removed account4 · Sep 24, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Are we seeing the same photos? Or was that sarcasm?

Anyway, without a comparison of similarly exposed and lighted fresh film it really doesn't mean much.

this isn't sarcasm.
previously in this thread i also posted room temperature 10+ year old
tmz processed by stand developing in sumatranol 130 and this film i just posted
was purchased at the same time ( purchased in about 1996 ) . this summer this film also had
the misfortune to go through the luggage scanner at the basel international airport in basel switzerland.
i hand processed yesterday in both ansco 130 and sumatranol130 nothing fancy, just used-developer ( used as in used before ).

why would one need new / fresh film to compare it with ? the negatives are meaty, and they scan well, and i will be enlarging some this morning.
the point of this thread wasn't to do scientific data or comparisons with fresh film or use densitometers but personal experiences and observations
about using expired films that were not stored or handled in optimal conditions. there has been a camp that claimed that the film was most certainly ruined, high iso films
not frozen is close to a death warrant for the film and i have claimed all along that this isn't necessarily true and that i personally believe ( through my own experience )
that film can be stored in non optimal conditions ( room temperature not frozen or cold ) and still be fine. no other films are needed to compare this with.
because i wasn't suggesting that it was as good as new, off the line, i said it wouldn't be dead meaning there wouldn't be so much fog or speed loss
to render the film useless. back to the title of the thread ... in my experience it doesn't make that much of a difference.

xmas
i too was given free film by a store that went out of business. it was 400cn (kodak) and the fog was so bad no image recorded on the film.

removed account4 · Sep 25, 2014

these color views were taken with 800 speed fuji .. expired 4 years, given to me by a friend
stored in a box in her place ( ambient temperature in her shop ) the snow scene is from fujicolor 800 i left it on my nightstand for probably
a year before i decided to use it. the film was in mycamera for probably 8 months before i finished the roll
and when the roll was finished it was sent to sams/fuji with no special instructions.
the slide ( cookout ) fujichrome800 film that was found in my camera bag a year or 2 after the snow scene ...
out of date by years, and not frozen or cold but in a camera bag.
i put it ( and 30+ other rolls of film ) in my luggage by mistake instead of my carry on
so it was xrayed, not scanned. again, the film was sent to sams/fuji >> dwaynes
with no special instructions ...

the attached images are from rolls had 36 color images from them that had nothing wrong with them
( these are scans of a print as well as a slide, with no photoshop corrections by me )

Roger Cole · Sep 25, 2014

jnanian said:
this isn't sarcasm.
previously in this thread i also posted room temperature 10+ year old
tmz processed by stand developing in sumatranol 130 and this film i just posted
was purchased at the same time ( purchased in about 1996 ) . this summer this film also had
the misfortune to go through the luggage scanner at the basel international airport in basel switzerland.
i hand processed yesterday in both ansco 130 and sumatranol130 nothing fancy, just used-developer ( used as in used before ).

why would one need new / fresh film to compare it with ? the negatives are meaty, and they scan well, and i will be enlarging some this morning.
the point of this thread wasn't to do scientific data or comparisons with fresh film or use densitometers but personal experiences and observations
about using expired films that were not stored or handled in optimal conditions. there has been a camp that claimed that the film was most certainly ruined, high iso films
not frozen is close to a death warrant for the film and i have claimed all along that this isn't necessarily true and that i personally believe ( through my own experience )
that film can be stored in non optimal conditions ( room temperature not frozen or cold ) and still be fine. no other films are needed to compare this with.
because i wasn't suggesting that it was as good as new, off the line, i said it wouldn't be dead meaning there wouldn't be so much fog or speed loss
to render the film useless. back to the title of the thread ... in my experience it doesn't make that much of a difference.

xmas
i too was given free film by a store that went out of business. it was 400cn (kodak) and the fog was so bad no image recorded on the film.

Well it looks like sarcasm to me because that second shot looks to me like it's fogged all to hell, and the first one isn't much better but COULD just be from being printed flat. Matter of taste I guess. I like my black and white images to have blacks and whites, not look like they were shot in Victorian London.

In my experience it DOES make a difference, and a big one with film that old.

Your second color example looks ok. The first one looks - well it's so abstract-ish looking it's hard to tell. But four year expired film is not 20 year expired film. I'd expect little problem with four year expired film.

removed account4 · Sep 25, 2014

roger:
no one is forcing you ( or anyone else ) use expired, poorly stored film, are they?
my point is that for 3 decades+ i have been told all film has to be refrigerated
or it will all be shot to hell ... yadda yadda yadda.. and i dont think it is completely true ..

this thread has nothing to do with what is or isnt a photograph or good photograph ...

MartinCrabtree · Sep 25, 2014

It's a crap shoot but my experience keeps me freezing film until time to use.

Ken Nadvornick · Sep 25, 2014

Roger Cole said:
Well it looks like sarcasm to me...

Might be best just to let this go. I suspect there are other deeper issues in play here...

Ken

OptiKen · Sep 25, 2014

I think that one of the main reasons to keep it refrigerated is that at least in the refrigerator, the temperature is constant. My house will vary from 40F to 102F, depending upon the season and time of day. Those fluctuations over time cannot be good for the film.
Alum foil, wax paper, Tupperware, saran wrap - all of these things simply protect the film from the environment.
No dust - no moisture or condensation - protection from the emulsion drying.
I know there are photographers who never worry about subjecting their film to extremes and simply take a roll off the shelf, open the package, and put it in the camera. They will tell you it has always worked fine for them and it probably has.
I also know people with auto insurance who never have to file a claim.

removed account4 · Sep 25, 2014

OptiKen said:
I think that one of the main reasons to keep it refrigerated is that at least in the refrigerator, the temperature is constant. My house will vary from 40F to 102F, depending upon the season and time of day. Those fluctuations over time cannot be good for the film.
Alum foil, wax paper, Tupperware, saran wrap - all of these things simply protect the film from the environment.
No dust - no moisture or condensation - protection from the emulsion drying.
I know there are photographers who never worry about subjecting their film to extremes and simply take a roll off the shelf, open the package, and put it in the camera. They will tell you it has always worked fine for them and it probably has.
I also know people with auto insurance who never have to file a claim.

thanks for your personal experience and observation and post optiken.
if your insurance plan works for you thats great. i do have auto ins, its the law where i live.

Photo Engineer · Sep 25, 2014

The answer depends. Here in Rochester it is humid, but the southwest is generally humid but I can give examples.

It is cold and damp in a refrigerator or freezer just due to the chilling process. If you take film out of one of these on a hot damp day, moisture will condense on the film and cause it to spot or stick together. I have measured this effect using both the room temp and humidity compared to the chamber in which the film was kept (both hot and cold chambers).

The sticky, moist film was generally ruined by leaving bubble shaped spots on the cold film if used immediately.

So, cold film (or paper) must be allowed to warm up gradually to room temp before placing in your camera or placing on your easel.

Now, as for the effects of cold on raw stock keeping, yes there is one. Film kept at room temp gradually changes in speed and fog. You see, the last step before coating is something like this. You add a bucket of special chemicals, heat the emulsion to 60C for 1 hour, chill to 40C and coat. This process increases speed and contrast. Now, this process does NOT STOP. So, as the film ages at room temp, this process goes on and fog begins to creep in. We have worked long and hard on stopping this process and have almost succeeded at it. Color paper does not have to be refrigerated to keep for quite a long time at RT. Just one example, but the newest films include this same feature.

So, cold good - heat bad - humidity bad!

PE

cold bw film does it really make that much of a difference ?

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency