Coffee? Is that true or a web-based fallacy?

Kirks518 · Jul 8, 2014

I've never even considered developing my own color, but I was quite successful with my first roll of B&W, that it got me thinking. So I was doing a web search on how to develop color film (35mm), and got some hits on developing with coffee and washing powder.

Have any of you tried it? What were the results? (Samples would be awesome). It's almost enough to make me want to try it, but I also think my next outing would involve the hunting of snipes...

Dr Croubie · Jul 8, 2014

*sits and waits for Jnanian to show up*
:munch:

(although I think you'll find that caffenol is a B+W developer, and like most colour films in B+W developers, the resulting negs are B+W)

Dennis S · Jul 8, 2014

Fuji Superia 200 in Caffenol C 30 min

View attachment 90726

Kirks518 · Jul 8, 2014

So it can be done, but the resulting negatives are B&W?

Dennis S · Jul 8, 2014

I used colour scan settings on this scan but not a whole lot of colour comes through. As you can see the grain is quite prevalent

Dr Croubie · Jul 9, 2014

That's a helluvalotta scanner noise in there too. Was it particularly dense (or thin)?
Just curious as to how the base of Caffenol-devved films comes up (either B+W or colour stock)? Is it anything strongly-coloured that might interfere with Multigrade papers?

Dennis S · Jul 9, 2014

The negatives were very thin so I didn't want to bother ruining more C-41 film. I mostly stay with b&w film for coffee developing.
Best reading I've found was "The Caffenol Cookbook & Bible"

StoneNYC · Jul 9, 2014

The one time jnanian doesn't show up... But maybe now that I've posted here he will

bdial · Jul 9, 2014

Kirks518 said:
So it can be done, but the resulting negatives are B&W?

Very simplistically, color film consists of three black and white emulsions in color-sensitive layers. In color processes like C-41 the initial development is B&W to convert the silver image.

So, if you only develop with a B&W developer, then fix you get a dense B&W image. If you follow-up the initial B&W development with the color developer, bleach, etc then you get the colors.

Whiteymorange · Jul 9, 2014

Jnanian is in Europe at the moment, visiting his in-laws, and may have limited access to APUG while traveling. Coffee developing is quite simple and quite effective, but in my experience, you have to like rather thick negatives. John calls them bullet-proof. They do not scan well but print with surprising ease. I have been trying to absorb his casual attitude about proportions in the mixing of the developer ("about this much of this and a smidge of that...") and I think he is on to something. My last experiment was with cold-brew coffee (what was left of a package of decaf that had been sitting on the counter too long was added to cold water and let sit for two days, then filtered). 16 oz of that with 4 Tbsp washing soda and about 1/2 oz of 6 month-old Accufine. I did a roll of TMP 320 that had been over-exposed and a roll of Extreme 100 (Photo Warehouse). The TMP came out great, the Extreme was really dark. Both were done at room temp, which was pretty warm, perhaps 80 degrees and let develop for about 12 minutes with regular, gentle agitation (1 min., then 10 sec every minute).

I do not suggest anyone else adapt this casual approach to developing film, unless they have a total disregard for repeatable results, as I do. It keeps me from being a serious photographer, but then, I do believe that "serious" is over-rated in most things. I shoot, develop and print for my own enjoyment, occasionally making art along the way. If you're not having fun, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong.

Xmas · Jul 9, 2014

Kirks518 said:
I also think my next outing would involve the hunting of snipes...

Confirmed C41 film like

mono XP2 and BW400CN
colour NPS160 pro, etc.,

is the near the peak of film technology (ECN2 just better) but C41 needs the C41 process or you destroy the film.

You can process at home using a kit or scratch mix but you need to wear rubber gloves.

Rick A · Jul 9, 2014

While I have no experience developing BW400cn in traditional B&W developers, I have souped XP2+, and it works just fine. Any color film can be developed in B&W chems, but you will NOT get color, only the silver layer will develop. The sweet thing about XP2+ is there is no orange mask like other c-41 films, it was designed by Ilford to be printed using traditional B&W paper.

pdeeh · Jul 9, 2014

bdial said:
Very simplistically, color film consists of three black and white emulsions in color-sensitive layers. In color processes like C-41 the initial development is B&W to convert the silver image.

So, if you only develop with a B&W developer, then fix you get a dense B&W image. If you follow-up the initial B&W development with the color developer, bleach, etc then you get the colors.

You're mixing up C41 and E6 processes

in C41 the developing agent both develops the silver image and at the same time creates the colour image as the oxidation products of the b&w development process triggers dye production in the emulsion layers. Later in the process the remaining undeveloped halides and silver image are bleached and fixed out.

If however you develop a C41 film in black & white process only, including fixing, you can later on use a rehalogenating bleach followed by correct colour development process to extract colour images from the same film ... (I've done this on some old C41 film of mine which I had developed in caffenol)

In E6 you develop first in what is (basically, though not identical) b&w developer , and later on in the process redevelop in a colour developer.

removed account4 · Jul 9, 2014

hi Kirks518 ...

yes, its true !
its probably one of the best developers out there ...
i've been using it since may 2006 pretty much as my main developer.
(paper, film, color/b-w ) ...

the caffenol-cookbook is here: http://caffenol-cookbook.com/
it may help answer some of your questions ...

sorry i missed this thread when you posted it yesterday? im not overseas .. ( yet ) but injured my eye a few days ago
and keeping internet to a minimum ...

feel free to contact me if you want to use whole beans instead of instant coffee ( for caffenol ) --- i source, roast and sell them ...

john

Rudeofus · Jul 9, 2014

Just curious: when you process C-41 color film, did you get any kind of color (besides the orange mask) ? Or do you use Caffenol as regular B&W developer for making B&W negs with an orange mask?

pdeeh · Jul 9, 2014

I've never seen a colour image from C41 that I have developed in a normal black and white developer (I've used both Caffenol and Rodinal for this - not together! - and developed a couple of dozen films that way)

However I have seen scans on Flickr of very faint colour in C41 developed in Rodinal, (and I have no reason to doubt that they are genuine rather than faked up)

removed account4 · Jul 9, 2014

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

color (c41 ) processed in caffenol has an orange mask
e6 has a yellowish mask
the fog and stain of the developer takes over the mask a little bit
if it is caffenol you process it in ... it does not print traditionally very well
because of the masks, but if you do that modern thing we can't talk about here
but on DPUG.ORG you can get nice images out of the film. it really isn't hard...

pdeeh · Jul 9, 2014

Once I'd got over the novelty of being able to do it and had practised enough with the £1-a-roll C41 film we can get in the UK, I stopped bothering.

I always found my results very dense indeed, contrast was very low, and the orange mask made that even worse in the enlarger. They didn't scan very well either. The exception was XP2 super, of course, which looked fine in Rodinal. But colour film, no.

No argument with using Caffenol for ordinary black and white material from me though, I only stopped using it because it wouldn't work with Retro 400S (terrible results) which I had a lot of at the time, and because I found it a faff to make up each time (yes, I know many people report reusing it, but I hate it when I lose a roll, and I can do that perfectly adequately on my own without throwing in another factor )

removed account4 · Jul 9, 2014

hi pdeeh

i stopped doing it too and gave away or sold or had my color films processed locally at a lab ...
and i have stopped just using caffenol c these days .. i use it as part of a split processing diet
where i process half in one developer and half in caffenol c ... i figured it was like split d-23 ( dd23 )
with a borax bath, but with a coffee+soda bath instead
can't complain works great with every film i stick in it

- john

Dr Croubie · Jul 10, 2014

pdeeh said:
You're mixing up C41 and E6 processes

in C41 the developing agent both develops the silver image and at the same time creates the colour image as the oxidation products of the b&w development process triggers dye production in the emulsion layers. Later in the process the remaining undeveloped halides and silver image are bleached and fixed out.

If however you develop a C41 film in black & white process only, including fixing, you can later on use a rehalogenating bleach followed by correct colour development process to extract colour images from the same film ... (I've done this on some old C41 film of mine which I had developed in caffenol)

In E6 you develop first in what is (basically, though not identical) b&w developer , and later on in the process redevelop in a colour developer.

That's one of my experiments for a lazy day, once my E6 FD has died I'll try using some B+W dev (caffenol or otherwise) with the remnants of the CD and Blix and see what I get.

On the C41 side, I've heard about rehal bleach but never investigated. a) what's good to use, and b) if I B+W dev -> B+W fix -> rehal bleach -> CD -> Blix, what's the result look like?

pdeeh · Jul 10, 2014

DrCroubie said:
... I'll try using some B+W dev (caffenol or otherwise) with the remnants of the CD and Blix
...
On the C41 side, I've heard about rehal bleach ... what's the result look like?

I've tried E6 film reversal developed in FrankenC41 using I think print developer as first developer, and I've tried C41 reversal developed in FrankenC41 as well as a "proper" C41 kit.

Results, as they say, were variable.

I think E6 first developers by their nature are quite fast-working and high-contrast, which Caffenol isn't, so it'd be interesting to see what the results are if you try it.

The following shot was initially developed in Rodinal to render a black and white image; then a year later, when I'd learned a bit more chemistry and discovered about rehal/redevelop for C41, I used a simple ferricyanide/Kbr bleach and redeveloped the roll in some FrankenC41. Scans don't tell the whole story, of course, the colour image is a bit thin and grainy.

Original scan of the black and white negative:

StoneNYC · Jul 10, 2014

pdeeh said:
I've tried E6 film reversal developed in FrankenC41 using I think print developer as first developer, and I've tried C41 reversal developed in FrankenC41 as well as a "proper" C41 kit.

Results, as they say, were variable.

I think E6 first developers by their nature are quite fast-working and high-contrast, which Caffenol isn't, so it'd be interesting to see what the results are if you try it.

The following shot was initially developed in Rodinal to render a black and white image; then a year later, when I'd learned a bit more chemistry and discovered about rehal/redevelop for C41, I used a simple ferricyanide/Kbr bleach and redeveloped the roll in some FrankenC41. Scans don't tell the whole story, of course, the colour image is a bit thin and grainy.

Original scan of the black and white negative:

The impressive part is that this was a year later...

Dennis S · Jul 10, 2014

I have used coffee for paper developing as well with some good results. The first was regular Arista paper. The next was a Foma warmtoned paper with very surprising result. Used same negative on both

removed account4 · Jul 10, 2014

hey OP

you might not know its there
but check out the coffee developer group here on apug

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
lots of good stuff there

Kirks518 · Jul 11, 2014

jnanian said:
hey OP

you might not know its there
but check out the coffee developer group here on apug

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
lots of good stuff there

After I posted this, I found the alternative process forum, and saw there was lots about coffee there. I searched this forum before posting, but no over there. One of these days I may try it.

Coffee? Is that true or a web-based fallacy?

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