Coffee for a sensitizer?

Fall · Mar 8, 2015

Bonsoir, everyone!

I have a question, and it may seem kind of silly, but I was always told there were no bad questions.

Can you use coffee, as a paper sensitizer? I was reading this http://cafegrafia.com/alternative_photography_make_your_own_negative_film_or_plates.php, and I didn't get if it was saying the coffee solution was the sensitizer or it was something else. To me, the chemistry didn't add up, but I can be surprised.

Merci everyone.

pdeeh · Mar 8, 2015

No, the coffee is used as part of the developing solution

Silver key · Mar 9, 2015

Bonsoir, Fall, ca va ?
pdeeh is right,
caffenol was invented in the war times as chemicals were hard to find. There is a lot off different receipts but it stays around coffee+vitamin C+baking powder. It comes out pretty cheap and you can replace the coffee with virtually anything (wine, coke, ...). You'll see absolutely no difference if you develop B&W negatives but it's on paper that the magic happens ...
I always have a pdf on my phone with all the recipes listed just in case ... you know ... survival style !

pdeeh · Mar 9, 2015

Have you got a reference for that suggestion about it being "wartime" thing?
Which war, by the way?

Bicarbonate of soda (baking powder) is not a good ingredient for Caffenol. You need Sodium carbonate, anhydrous for preference, although you could of course make carbonate from bicarbonate by heating it.
However, much easier to start out with the right ingredients.

As far as I can tell, the first properly documented reference to using coffee in developers is by Dr. Scott Williams at RIT - the informal research paper can be read here http://people.rit.edu/andpph/text-coffee.html - where a mixture of Sodium bicarbonate and Potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) was used, which is where perhaps the confusion about baking soda comes in.

removed account4 · Mar 9, 2015

Silver key said:
Bonsoir, Fall, ca va ?
pdeeh is right,
caffenol was invented in the war times as chemicals were hard to find. There is a lot off different receipts but it stays around coffee+vitamin C+baking powder. It comes out pretty cheap and you can replace the coffee with virtually anything (wine, coke, ...). You'll see absolutely no difference if you develop B&W negatives but it's on paper that the magic happens ...
I always have a pdf on my phone with all the recipes listed just in case ... you know ... survival style !

hi silver key

i have to agree with pdeeh the first caffenol experiments that were written about were later .. but i might be wrong ..
unless they came about after the angolan or nicarruaguan or afghanistan conflicts of the 70s + 80s and wartime correspondants needing
to process their film on the fly ... i think during ww2 coffee might have been rashioned... ( but as i said i might be wrong )

fixer remover on the other hand, was developed because of wartime efforts using sea water as a wash-aid since potable water might have been scarce on a navy ship ...
the sulfides &c ( in sea water ) were identified as something to grab thiosulfate ions out of solution and things like perma wash were "invented" ..
maybe that is what you are refering to?

as for you can mix anythnng with baking soda and vit c and it will process your film...
not sure if you can mix baking soda and vit c with anything to process film. i have read many posts in the last 10 years about people trying to
do just as you suggest ... and it didn't really work or work very well ... maybe i have been reading the wrong newsgroups ?

in any case using coffee is a blast, and i don't think i will give it up anytime soon ( or at least i finish the 50lbs of beans in my garage ).

john

Photo Engineer · Mar 9, 2015

pdeeh said:
Have you got a reference for that suggestion about it being "wartime" thing?
Which war, by the way?

Bicarbonate of soda (baking powder) is not a good ingredient for Caffenol. You need Sodium carbonate, anhydrous for preference, although you could of course make carbonate from bicarbonate by heating it.
However, much easier to start out with the right ingredients.

As far as I can tell, the first properly documented reference to using coffee in developers is by Dr. Scott Williams at RIT - the informal research paper can be read here http://people.rit.edu/andpph/text-coffee.html - where a mixture of Sodium bicarbonate and Potassium hydroxide (caustic potash) was used, which is where perhaps the confusion about baking soda comes in.

Grant Haist discusses the alternatives to conventional developers in his book which predates your document by at least 2 decades. Haist mentions winol, caffeinol, urinol, and then goes on to discuss using water from the local river to get images on film.

PE

removed account4 · Mar 9, 2015

jnanian said:
but i might be wrong ..
john

its good to know i am still wrong most of the time!
im no expert, and i don't play one on TV either...

thanks PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 9, 2015

Not directed at you John, but rather at the RIT reference above.

PE

pdeeh · Mar 9, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Grant Haist discusses the alternatives to conventional developers in his book which predates your document by at least 2 decades. Haist mentions winol, caffeinol, urinol, and then goes on to discuss using water from the local river to get images on film.

PE

excellent.

thanks PE

removed account4 · Mar 9, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Not directed at you John, but rather at the RIT reference above.

PE

its all good PE

there is a folklore about caffenol and you have added another layer to the onion !

john

pdeeh · Mar 9, 2015

Speaking of folklore, It is a little known fact that a goblin who lived under a bridge over the Avon (it runs just by Lacock) offered to reveal the secret of Caffenol to Fox Talbot in exchange for the hand of his daughter Matilda.

Fox Talbot, being both an English gentleman and a clergyman, of course refused, and the secret was lost to Science for another century and a half

Fall · Mar 9, 2015

I'm going well, silver. Thank you for asking.

I had figured I read that wrong. As, I couldn't see coffee being the sensitizing agent, and I knew some people developed with cafenol, but couldn't get the chimie to make sense.

I to was interested at the birth of caffenol being around world war two. I had figured, since coffee was rationed during the war, the coffee would be more precious then rodinal.

Photo Engineer, that was a very interesting post, I always like your post, and again very interesting information.

Thank you everyone for clearing somethings up.

However, I am curious what was in that river water?

Merci.

Photo Engineer · Mar 10, 2015

Grant apparently tried it above and below stream of the EK effluent here, and found similar results. He then postulated that it was natural catechols excreted by humans and put into the sewage. My memory may be wrong though.

PE

removed account4 · Mar 10, 2015

Photo Engineer said:
Grant apparently tried it above and below stream of the EK effluent here, and found similar results. He then postulated that it was natural catechols excreted by humans and put into the sewage. My memory may be wrong though.

PE

so it was PEE-ro all the time ?

john

Photo Engineer · Mar 10, 2015

I leave that to the eyes and nose of the beholder!

PE

Fall · Mar 11, 2015

Fascinating! I might try it for my self, as there is a creek that flows by me where I have noticed sewage pipes from homes flowing directly into it, and since the government won't do anything about it, I might as well use it for science. I do know that I have found, threw cultures, that the creek is highly contaminated with the normal flora of the human digestive system, so this should be possible.

Photo engineer, just to be clear, Grant believed it to be from the catechol estrogens, correct?

Merci.

Photo Engineer · Mar 11, 2015

I'm doing the best I can. This was in the '70s, and memory is hard to capture accurately. Look in his book if you can. Or look up catechols on-line.

PE

Photo Engineer · Mar 11, 2015

Then this was apparently a discussion with Grant personally.

Catechols do occur naturally though just about everywhere, as do tannins.

PE

Coffee for a sensitizer?

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