Coating papers for cyanotype

Jaq · Feb 28, 2008

Hi

I have just started Cyanotype printing. I was wondering if I could coat the paper in "normal" incandescent light or must I do this in subdued light?

thanks

Emile

Ria · Feb 28, 2008

In Coming into Focus, (edited by John Baunier), a "low level tungsten" light is recommended.
"Normal" household bulbs are tungsten filament bulbs. I generally use a yellow bug light bulb, on the far side of the room, as a safelight when working with cyanotype.
Ria

Jaq · Feb 28, 2008

Ok, thanks. I will try it this way. I did it with the lights on, assuming that because you need ultraviolet light it would not be alright but it seems to have been "contaminated".

Will try it this way and see what happens.

Do you know how long I can keep unexposed coated paper?

Emile

Jim Noel · Feb 28, 2008

IN class I have the students coat with 40 watt incandescent bulbs 6-8 feet away with no fogging problems.

Coated paper is best used the same day. I coat no more than I can use in 2-3 hours.

Akki14 · Feb 28, 2008

... On the flip side of the coin I coat under a fluorescent bulb with no problems and I also keep dried coated paper wrapped loosely in foil for easily up to a month or two without fogging the highlights (they still come out pure white, no problems). But your mileage may vary on this one, I suspect it also has something to do with papers. Some papers might make the solution go off quicker so people always work under that assumption. Cheap, student grade Fabriano watercolour paper works for me, as does the prepackaged Fabriano Watercolour Studio paper.

If you're having "fogging" issues, I'd lean towards trying another paper or at the very least do an acid soak of the paper, let dry completely overnight, then coat, dry, expose.

Schlapp · Feb 28, 2008

I have been using cartridge paper - and that works well. Also Bockingford watercolour but pre-soaked in stop-bath then dried before coating. Matt inkjet papers work well too.

Jaq · Feb 29, 2008

Thanks for all the tips. I'll try them out this weekend and see what happens!

nze · Feb 29, 2008

just avoid low energy light they produce UV. But with any 40- 60 W light you'll be able to coat your paper without problem./ Take care about paper turning lightly blue when or quickly after coating, it is sometime paper contamination and not light contamination.

best

Jaq · Feb 29, 2008

Christian,

I think that it was paper contamination. The paper was light blue/ light green but I have just washed one page that I coated and all the coating came off. Will paper contamination have any effect on the final image at all?
The paper that I have been using is just ordinary paper that I had at home. I suppose that I should get some watercolour paper or at least something more suitable.

Akki14 · Feb 29, 2008

It will be sort of yellow with a tiny tint of green when it goes on, it'll dry a bit darker green. Yes all the coating will come off if you've not exposed the sheet.
What's going on is that cyanotypes like acidic paper which is a bit harder to find in nice papers these days because archival means basic environment for everything else but cyanotypes. The solution will react with a very alkaline/basic material and will start to change colour without any UV light hitting it. Normally when this happens, the paper will be pretty blue rather than green.
I've found normal paper for printers (not the fancy kinds) tends to give a mottled result with not very dark blues and generally not nice looking.

Below is a picture of what colour you should be aiming for when the paper is coated, maybe a little damp but it will dry a tiny bit darker than this colour in my experience.

nze · Feb 29, 2008

As Akki wrote modern paper often contain buffer which react with the cyanotype solution. But it is still possible to find paper wich are unbuffered and that works with cyanotype. By the way this not mean that all buffered paper don't work. Depending on the buffer and their pH they could work.But i opposite to an acid or unbuffered paper on which I could coat and keep the paper for a month or more, the cyanotype on buffered paper will turn blue with time.
I use many different paper from callsic canson ( easy to find in France ) to Cappelades ( hand made in spain) , I also try an handmade paper made in mexico which work just great with cyanotype and platinum.

paper contamination is like fogging, you want have a true white on the final print. may be useful.

Best

Erik Hartmann · Mar 2, 2008

Thanks for many fine tips.... I am quite new in cyanotypes ...
I use graphic 340 gr. paper.... working, but I see that I should use thinner paper....
Shall I coat 1 or 2 times ???? What do you do ???

Akki14 · Mar 2, 2008

I doubt the slightly thicker paper matters so much to cyanotype, unless you're having problems washing out the yellow unexposed coating.
I tend to coat two times these days. I coat a lot of paper at one time and when the surface of the paper looks dry, then i brush on some more sensitiser.

nze · Mar 2, 2008

Double coating help to get a denser blue , a blue black. I also tend to double coat.
The weight of the paper is not a problem , I do some on 640GSM paper without any problem. It just a chmeical question.

Dan Dozer · Mar 8, 2008

Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the sensitizer. I just tried my first cyanotype coating earlier tonight (Mike Ware's new process) - sample coatings on various papers to try several different types. However, mine don't look anything like those in Akki14's photo. The coating is very thin and not yellow at all - more pale transparent green and definitely not yellow. I exposed 6 different sample papers for about 3 to 4 minutes each. Where the sensitiser was not covered by the negative, it turned out dark blue, but in all the images, the image is very pale. I'm wondering if something is wrong with my senitizer because the sensitizer is green and I'm not getting yellow coatings at all.

Anyone have any advice?

Schlapp · Mar 8, 2008

Dan Dozer said:
Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the sensitizer. I just tried my first cyanotype coating earlier tonight (Mike Ware's new process) - sample coatings on various papers to try several different types. However, mine don't look anything like those in Akki14's photo. The coating is very thin and not yellow at all - more pale transparent green and definitely not yellow. I exposed 6 different sample papers for about 3 to 4 minutes each. Where the sensitiser was not covered by the negative, it turned out dark blue, but in all the images, the image is very pale. I'm wondering if something is wrong with my senitizer because the sensitizer is green and I'm not getting yellow coatings at all.

Anyone have any advice?

I've not used Mike Ware's stuff but with conventional chemistry, this would most likely be either lack of exposure or a bad neg. I propose the former.

Akki14 · Mar 8, 2008

I'm not sure what the colours of Mike Ware's cyanotype formula looks like. My picture is of traditional formula and possibly everything there is double coated because it is a transparent wash of colour on the paper. There is a hint of green in traditional cyanotype because the ammonium ferric citrate is a green colour and the pot. ferri. is a yellow colour when dissolved in water. Equal amounts of both still yields a neon yellow-green. You might be having problems finding a paper that works with the Mike Ware formula as that's a little more picky than the traditional formula as to what papers it will work on, from what I've read on here.

If you were using traditional formula and were only getting dark blue, I'd say you're under exposing. The shadow areas of the image will "reverse" in colour and go a dusty blue/gray-blue colour when properly exposed. Anything else is too underexposed.

snallan · Mar 8, 2008

Dan Dozer said:
Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the sensitizer. I just tried my first cyanotype coating earlier tonight (Mike Ware's new process) ... The coating is very thin and not yellow at all - more pale transparent green and definitely not yellow. ... I'm wondering if something is wrong with my senitizer because the sensitizer is green and I'm not getting yellow coatings at all.

Anyone have any advice?

In Mike Ware's description of the new cyanotype process, he suggests trying different papers if the coatings go green or blue on drying (he does say the process is "a delicate test of paper quality"), as the coating going off like this is probably due to impurities, or additives in the paper. As a stop gap, he suggests that the addition of one or two drops of a 40% soln of citric acid per ml of sensitiser can stop the deterioration in the short term (this is also used as a contrast control mechanism).

donbga · Mar 8, 2008

Dan Dozer said:
Maybe I'm doing something wrong with the sensitizer. I just tried my first cyanotype coating earlier tonight (Mike Ware's new process) - sample coatings on various papers to try several different types. However, mine don't look anything like those in Akki14's photo. The coating is very thin and not yellow at all - more pale transparent green and definitely not yellow. I exposed 6 different sample papers for about 3 to 4 minutes each. Where the sensitiser was not covered by the negative, it turned out dark blue, but in all the images, the image is very pale. I'm wondering if something is wrong with my senitizer because the sensitizer is green and I'm not getting yellow coatings at all.

Anyone have any advice?

You are using a 'hostile' paper. Try adding 1 or 2 drops of a 40% solution of citric acid to your coating mix for each sheet of 8x10 paper you coat.

Dan Dozer · Mar 8, 2008

Thanks for all the suggestions - I tried the exposure range that Mike Ware suggested (2 - 4 minutes) but perhaps that is just not enough for my UV box. Typically, for Pt/Pd my exposure times are around 7 minutes.

FYI - the papers I tried were the following: Bergger 320, Strathmore 500 (new type), Cranes Platinotype, Cranes Kid Finish, Weston, and Bienfang 360.

The Strathmore clearly doesn't work due to a sizing on it - I encountered this with Pt/Pd as well. Most of the coating just washes away and the sizing won't clear either. I wonder if it will work with an oxalic acid soak prior to coating.

The Cranes Kid Finish and the Bienfang seem to work the best, but it's hard to tell without trying longer exposures. Only thing challenging with the Bienfang (it's actually tracing/drafting paper) is that it is so thin, it's like toilet paper when wet.

Obviously, I need to do some more experimentation with all of this and for now, I'm going to assume that I just need longer exposures. I may also try double coating as well. Ultimately, my goal is to try Cyanotype over Palladium.

donbga · Mar 8, 2008

Dan Dozer said:
Thanks for all the suggestions - I tried the exposure range that Mike Ware suggested (2 - 4 minutes) but perhaps that is just not enough for my UV box. Typically, for Pt/Pd my exposure times are around 7 minutes.

FYI - the papers I tried were the following: Bergger 320, Strathmore 500 (new type), Cranes Platinotype, Cranes Kid Finish, Weston, and Bienfang 360.

The Strathmore clearly doesn't work due to a sizing on it - I encountered this with Pt/Pd as well. Most of the coating just washes away and the sizing won't clear either. I wonder if it will work with an oxalic acid soak prior to coating.

The Cranes Kid Finish and the Bienfang seem to work the best, but it's hard to tell without trying longer exposures. Only thing challenging with the Bienfang (it's actually tracing/drafting paper) is that it is so thin, it's like toilet paper when wet.

Obviously, I need to do some more experimentation with all of this and for now, I'm going to assume that I just need longer exposures. I may also try double coating as well. Ultimately, my goal is to try Cyanotype over Palladium.

Generally ant paper good for palladium printing will work fine for cyanotype. If you are getting wash off expose longer and add some Tween 20 to the mix to help the sensitizer permeate the paper.

I've tested/used all of the papers you have listed except for the Strathmore and they should all work. You can also add Clear Print Vellum and Mars Stadler vellum (thanks to Kerik Kouklis for turning everyone on to those) to your list.

Also was is the RH in your coating environment? Winter time low RH can cause some of these symtoms as well.

RobertP · Mar 8, 2008

donbga said:
You are using a 'hostile' paper. Try adding 1 or 2 drops of a 40% solution of citric acid to your coating mix for each sheet of 8x10 paper you coat.

By a 40% solution. I assume you mean 40 grams of citric acid to 100 ml of water? Thanks

donbga · Mar 8, 2008

RobertP said:
By a 40% solution. I assume you mean 40 grams of citric acid to 100 ml of water? Thanks

Key-rect!

Dan Dozer · Mar 8, 2008

OK - I just got done trying my first 8 x 10 cyanotypes. They are still drying so I can't post them yet. It was interesting to say the least. While all the talk is that it is easy to do, I can see that I need to take the same care and attention to Cyanotype as I do Pt/Pd. I tried two prints on Cranes Kid finish single coating one and double coating the other. The double coating created some problems - I don't think it is needed on this paper type.

Don - just about everything you said is right on. I think I probably need to humidify the paper before coating. The images aren't as smooth as I would have liked. That seems to help here for Pt/Pd prints. Even at the most humid of times here in the desert south west, it's still always pretty dry.

Increasing the exposure times to around 10 minutes seems to work well. However, contrary to what Mike Ware says about "very little loss of image substance" during the washing process, I was still seeing it. On the two images I did, they looked pretty good early in the washing process, but as they were in the water longer, they started to loose some of the color/density. I did use Tween 20 in the coating process. I'll try longer exposure times and I might try experimenting with the citric acid pre soak to see what if any thing it does.

Regarding the "hostile" paper. I don't think that is a problem. What I'm a little confused about is that my sensitizer isn't turning green upon drying, it is already pale green right out of the bottle. It's not changing color as it dries. Mike Ware makes mention to the bright yellow color, but I just don't have it. I was very careful in my mixing process and went by the book the whole way, but maybe I did something to screw it up a little.

Back to the darkroom to try some more.

donbga · Mar 8, 2008

Dan Dozer said:
What I'm a little confused about is that my sensitizer isn't turning green upon drying, it is already pale green right out of the bottle. It's not changing color as it dries.

Your sensitizer color sounds okay , it should be greenish-yellow.

Perhaps something like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartreuse_(color)

As long as it is not blue.

Now about the wash off; I'm not sure about that, could your water be alkaline? Develop the print in a 3% citric acid solution for about a minute or so and then follow with a 20 minute water bath development. If you still have a heavy blue wash then develop the entire time in a 3% citric acid solution. Follow up with a 30 min water wash. You can do about 5 prints with the citric solution.

To arrive at the correct exposure time, expose a step tablet until the first couple of steps or so look solarized. That ahould tell you the basic printing time.

I think you are on the right track.

Now just to clarify things in case others are reading this; it is not necessary to gelatin size paper for cyanotype printing! Ware's cyanotype process is paper fussy and he recommends Buxton paper which is expensive as hell, so the paper part is tricky

Now having said that I do gelatin size Fabriano Artistico Extra white when I plan on printing gum over cyanotype so in that case if you only wanted to print cyanotype with that paper it might be worth it since it is a nice paper, but be warned FAEW doesn't like the cyanotype process, but I don't use the New Cyanotype solution for gum overs.

If all else fails try a soak in 2% oxalic acid for 5 minutes. I've never done that but it might work.

Good luck,

Coating papers for cyanotype

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