Cloudy, soft, yellow Negatives?

RoboRepublic

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Hi folks, I have some really nice pictures on some negatives, however they are all exhibiting a cloudy, milky appearance. I know, from experience, that were I to soak them in water, they will get soft and can easily be rubbed off by your fingers. The emulsions are a broad range: TMY-400, Delta 400, FP4. Please see attached examples.
 

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RoboRepublic

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Heres a 'normal' looking negative, in the same lighting.
 

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MattKing

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Looks like they may be incompletely fixed. Try re-fixing them with fresh fixer, checked with a clip test.
 

Sirius Glass

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Definitely a fixing problem in the need of some good fixing. You are not fixing long enough.
 

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reddesert

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RoboRepublic said:
what's a clip test?
Click to expand...

Matt's procedure is more thorough but the basic idea is to clip some excess film (from your leader, or the bit at the tape-end of 120 film). Take two pieces and dunk one in working-strength developer and the other in working-strength fixer, in room light. The one in developer should go black in a few minutes and the one in fixer should go clear in a few minutes. If either does not process to completion or it takes too long, that solution is exhausted. For more detailed measurements of the clearing and total fixing time see Matt's procedure.
 

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Once they're fixed properly you can put them in water if you wish, nothing will rub off.

I followed someone's method here for refixing some of my negs recently. Since they were already cut into strips and I didn't want to thread those back into the reels, I just dropped them into a measuring cup w/ the fixer in it, sloshed them around for 4 minutes, and ran water over them for a good long time. Then rehung them to dry individually, which didn't take long.
 
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RoboRepublic

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MattKing said:
Looks like they may be incompletely fixed. Try re-fixing them with fresh fixer, checked with a clip test.
Click to expand...

Matt,
The Document shared states:
You can do the test while your film is being fixed. Once you reach the clearing time, you then know to double or (in the case of T-Max and similar films) triple it in order to achieve your target total fixing time.
Click to expand...

I am unsure why, once the clearing time is reached, you need to double or triple it?
Thanks for your insight.
 

Sirius Glass

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RoboRepublic said:
Matt,
The Document shared states:


I am unsure why, once the clearing time is reached, you need to double or triple it?
Thanks for your insight.
Click to expand...

Double it is good enough, almost all the time. If the fixer is really used up it could take longer. At that point one really needs to replace the fixer.
 
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RoboRepublic

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Okay i tried cutting strips submerging to find the clearing time. The negative clears quickly in about one minute. However it remains extremely soft. Just touching it with the tip of my temperature probe got it tearing off the base.

The strip that remains cloudy is the control in the experiment, and its in my fingers behind the beaker. The other was in the beaker.
I'm using illford rapid fix. I mixed it on 04/02/22. It been used for 10 rolls worth of fixing. I typically fix for five minutes.

Is it possible the fixer is too old such that it's not fixing the emulsion to the base? Is there anyway to fix these problematic negatives?


 

MattKing

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RoboRepublic said:
Matt,
The Document shared states:


I am unsure why, once the clearing time is reached, you need to double or triple it?
Thanks for your insight.
Click to expand...

Clearing indicates that you have completed a substantial portion of the fixing process.
The complete process requires more. With traditional films, doubling the time will be sufficient. With T-Max and other T-grain or similar films, you need to treble the time in order to be sure that you have completed the process.
 

MattKing

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As for the soft emulsion, that is very strange. It may be that the problem has something to do with the rest of your procedure.
Please tell us what you are using for pre-rinse (if any), developer, stop, fixer, clearing agent (if any) including dilutions and temperature.
By the way, the use of the word "fixer" doesn't refer to how the emulsion is stuck to the base. It refers to how the development of the emulsion is made permanent and not subject to further development or deterioration over time.
One last question - how sure are you about your thermometer's accuracy? The loose emulsion makes me wonder about extreme developer temperatures.
 

snusmumriken

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I drop the film leader into the fix while the rest of the film is in the developer. I note the time to clearing and double it when I pour the fix into the tank.
 
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RoboRepublic

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Pre-rinse is a water bath, typically one minute at room temperature.
This particular sample was delta 400 developed in DDX for 9 minutes, I used illford chemicals, including ilfostop for 30s, and ilford rapid fixer.


I develop religiously at 68degress - the thermometer reports to one decimal place, so I imagine its accurate to one degree.
After development I run my fingers down the length of the roll, to help take off the excess. The emulsion was not soft after development. Its only now, after sitting in a sleeve that I'm trying to re-wash and cut the negatives for storage do I find some negatives in this bizarre condition. Most also happen to be some of the most compelling exposures I've made. I'm really hoping to find a solution so I can preserve them.
 

Sirius Glass

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Since the film gets soft after drying, you may be putting the film in the sleeve before the film has completely dried. I wait 24 hours, but I am in a dry climate.
 
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RoboRepublic

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The film is frim after drying, it is then placed in a sleeve. Only once re-washed, does it becomes soft but only until it dries out again.
 

MattKing

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It is this image from you that makes me think the emulsion was soft after the first process:
 
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RoboRepublic

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I understand why you think so, however it is misleading- this was the first negative i attempted to re-wash. This one has been sitting developed since February 2021, when I first developed and scanned it in.
I have 63 rolls that needed re-washing, 6 exhibit this cloudiness.

They were all developed at different times between 2020 and 2021.
At the time I didn't mind- as they scanned really well. I tried re-washing them to get the dust off and thats when I noticed I was tearing the emulsion right off the base.
 

Patrick Robert James

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You just need to refix. Looks like you didn't fix long enough and didn't put enough fixer in the tank. If you did fix for 5 minutes then you didn't agitate enough or your fixer is toast.

Emulsion shouldn't tear off the base like that. Only time I've ever experienced anything like that was with really hot water.
 
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RoboRepublic

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Thank you, I'm in a bit of a pickle: Fixing clears the negative, but the emulsion becomes highly susceptible to tearing, as the water in the fix bath softens the negative. I wonder if there is any chemical process to keep the photo stuck to the base at this point. Or if I should not bother ever washing these negatives.
 

MattKing

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Sounds like you need to use hardener - something that is relatively rare now with modern film.
If you can find some Kodak Rapid Fixer in the 1 gallon size, it comes with a bottle of Part B hardener that can be either not used or added to the fixer, based on need. Using that fixer with the Part B hardener added for the re-fixing step would help, assuming your negatives aren't already too damaged.
 

reddesert

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RoboRepublic said:
The film is frim after drying, it is then placed in a sleeve. Only once re-washed, does it becomes soft but only until it dries out again.
Click to expand...

RoboRepublic said:
I develop religiously at 68degress - the thermometer reports to one decimal place, so I imagine its accurate to one degree.
After development I run my fingers down the length of the roll, to help take off the excess.
Click to expand...

Don't run your fingers down the roll. Don't touch the film. If you need to help the water run off, just use Photo-flo and follow the instructions.

I still don't really understand what's going on here or if there's some issue with how the film was stored. Delta shouldn't need hardener, although it won't hurt. I would:
- refix
- wash, paying close attention to the wash water temperature
- Photo-flo per instructions
- hang to dry, do not touch until absolutely dry.
 

MattKing

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I'm thinking that the films were incompletely fixed, and possibly incompletely washed, and then stored in that condition and in sleeves for a period of several months up to a couple of years.
 
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