Cloudy Fixer

I use Kodak's Rapid Fixer and have from the very get go. I reuse it and try to keep up with the rolls I've used it for. If my count is correct out of the half gallon I made up I've ran 10 rolls of 35mm through it and it's gotten cloudy looking so, I decided to take a piece of film and drop it in a small container and see ow long it took to clear.

It's still clearing at about the same amount of time it did when fresh but the cloudy bothered me and I figured it was nearing exhaustion. I can't recall the fixer getting that cloudy before. Would you still use it testing in advance of using a roll to fix next go round? It appears to have done fine this time and I gave it my traditional three minutes as always.

It seems I've read it's good for about 25 rolls but couldn't recall if that was for a gallon or half gallon.

A couple of questions:

1) why did you make up such a large quantity (half gallon)?;
2) did you put the hardener in, and if so, why?;
3) how long ago did you make it up; and
4) what is the clearing time?

I've always made up half a gallon and always used the hardner. Why, because it's there for a reason so, I use it.I'd say that batch of fixer may be about two months old. Clearing time is right at 1-1/2 minute.

Actually, the amount of part A and B make a gallon and I half it to get half a gallon.

The hardener is optional. If you buy the Rapid Fixer in the larger, commercial volumes it is sold separately, and most don't purchase it, unless they are developing exotic, poorly hardened emulsions.

I haven't included the hardener in my mixed up working solutions for years. I just replace the volume with water.

It increases the acidity of the mixture. That might be contributing to the cloudiness.

I asked about the quantity you mixed because the concentrate lasts longer than mixed up working solution, so there is an advantage to mixing smaller amounts.

ColColt said:

I use Kodak's Rapid Fixer and have from the very get go. I reuse it and try to keep up with the rolls I've used it for. If my count is correct out of the half gallon I made up I've ran 10 rolls of 35mm through it and it's gotten cloudy looking so, I decided to take a piece of film and drop it in a small container and see ow long it took to clear.

It's still clearing at about the same amount of time it did when fresh but the cloudy bothered me and I figured it was nearing exhaustion. I can't recall the fixer getting that cloudy before. Would you still use it testing in advance of using a roll to fix next go round? It appears to have done fine this time and I gave it my traditional three minutes as always.

It seems I've read it's good for about 25 rolls but couldn't recall if that was for a gallon or half gallon.

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There is no advantage to using your fixer at twice the recommended dilution; Kodak gives you dilutions for a reason, you should be using the correct ones. Too strong fixer will not fix properly; a certain amount of water is required.

If you read the instructions that came with your fixer, you'd find out the reason for the hardener and why you probably shouldn't be using it. FWIW, I've stopped buying the Kodak Rapid Fix just because I think it's a waste to pay for and then have to dispose of the hardener safely. The corresponding Ilford products don't have hardener packaged with them.

Fixer goes cloudy because sulfur is precipitating out and going into suspension. This is likely happening faster in your case because the fix is too concentrated... It is a sign that the fix is close to exhaustion.

Clearing times for most conventional films in fresh working-strength rapid fixers should be in the 30-45 second range, for tabular-grain films 60 seconds or a little longer. Your clearing time above sounds a bit long, especially if it's conventional film.

Best practice unless you are working with specialty films with very soft emulsions is to omit the hardener. This also allows you to mix smaller amounts from the concentrate. I never mix more than I will use in a session and never save my fix for future use. If I were shooting roll film, I'd probably mix the amount I needed for a tank and try to use this to capacity in one session. If I couldn't, I'd save it in a full, tightly-stoppered bottle and try to use it within a month.

Perhaps the sections on capacities and shelf life in the following will help you: http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

Best,

Doremus

Best I recall about the hardener was it's function was to keep the gelatin in film from swelling. I can't recall where I read it, maybe a Kodak publication one of my photography books. I've just always included it.

There is no advantage to using your fixer at twice the recommended dilution; Kodak gives you dilutions for a reason, you should be using the correct ones. Too strong fixer will not fix properly; a certain amount of water is required.

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Kodak's instruction sheet that comes with the fixer makes no mention about any dilution rates. I mix it per the instructions and then use it accordingly to the amount needed such as 300 ml for one 35mm roll of film. The two bottles that come with the kit make 1 gallon of working solution. I saw no need to make up a gallon so cut the recommendation in half to make 1 liter or quart. They show you how much of Part A and B to use if you want to make a gallon, 3 1/2 gallons or 5 gallons. I use the amounts for a gallon, cut it in half to yield half a gallon since I have several of those containers available.

Upon using the fixer I dump it back into the container to be used the next time. According to Kodak, 1 gallon of fixer has a capacity of 120 35mm size, 36 exposure rolls of film. That's why I wondered why the cloudy solution after just 10 rolls of 24 exposure film used with half a gallon.

Doremus Scudder said:

FWIW, I've stopped buying the Kodak Rapid Fix just because I think it's a waste to pay for and then have to dispose of the hardener safely.

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I was approaching the issue the same way as Doremus until I started doing more print toning.

The little bottles of hardener work great with toned, not yet fully re-washed prints (which do benefit from hardening). Just dilute it 1+13 with water.

And if you find some information about the capacity of that hardening solution, please share it.

I never used Rapid Fix with printing, just film. I used Kodak's standard powdered fixer when doing prints, sans hardener.

ColColt said:

I used Kodak's standard powdered fixer when doing prints, sans hardener.

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The Kodak powdered fix includes hardener. You cannot avoid hardener with it.

If your fixer is starting to turn cloudy it may be a sign that it is beginning to sulfurize. This problem has nothing to do with the number of rolls run through it. It happens when the fixer begins to age. Using the hardener will only make fixer turn more rapidly. Once the process of sulfurization begins it will progress at a faster and faster rate. There is nothing you can do to stop it. If you continue to use it you run the risk of sulfur being deposited on film or paper. Once this happens it can be impossible to remove.

I figured as much and dumped it after a second look from the other day.

ColColt said:

I figured as much and dumped it after a second look from the other day.

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Hi David, once fixer is on the turn you did right to dump it. Was there a bad smell like rotten eggs with it ? Personally I have never used a hardening fixer as I have always used the Ilford washing method. Never had a problem from non hardening fixer but hardening greatly increases washing times.

ColColt said:

Best I recall about the hardener was it's function was to keep the gelatin in film from swelling. I can't recall where I read it, maybe a Kodak publication one of my photography books. I've just always included it.
Kodak's instruction sheet that comes with the fixer makes no mention about any dilution rates. I mix it per the instructions and then use it accordingly to the amount needed such as 300 ml for one 35mm roll of film. The two bottles that come with the kit make 1 gallon of working solution. I saw no need to make up a gallon so cut the recommendation in half to make 1 liter or quart. They show you how much of Part A and B to use if you want to make a gallon, 3 1/2 gallons or 5 gallons. I use the amounts for a gallon, cut it in half to yield half a gallon since I have several of those containers available.

Upon using the fixer I dump it back into the container to be used the next time. According to Kodak, 1 gallon of fixer has a capacity of 120 35mm size, 36 exposure rolls of film. That's why I wondered why the cloudy solution after just 10 rolls of 24 exposure film used with half a gallon.

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I may have misunderstood what you are doing here. If you are using half the concentrate from a one-gallon mix to make 1/2 gallon, then you are mixing correctly. Just don't make and use a half-gallon from the entire mix; it would then be too strong.

As far as diluting to make smaller amounts: It doesn't matter if Kodak doesn't include dilution rates, just calculate back from the entire volume. 1/2 of the concentrate makes 1/2 gallon, 1/4 of the concentrate makes one quart, 1/8 of the volume makes 16 oz. and 1/16 of the volume makes 8 oz. It should be easy enough to mix just what you need for a session or two and then not have fixer sitting around for long enough periods of time to go bad. As long as you are using film with a hardened emulsion, you don't really need the hardener and, as Gerald points out, it just reduces the shelf-life of your fix.

Best,

Doremus

John, if it did smell that bad I couldn't tell it. I kept it almost at arms length, however. I've always given a two minute wash after fix and then five minutes final after the Hypo clearing.

I've used the hardener from day one when I started doing B&W millennials ago(70's). I went by the recommendation with the instructions and never changed. That was with a host of different films over time and different brands and ASA's. My theory was if I make up half of the recommended gallon of fixer I could get more rolls developed without having to dump it. I looked at the container I had it in last night and I had wrote the date of 3/16/16 on it so, it wasn't quite two months old yet. That seems a bit odd for it to have turned cloudy the way it did after ten rolls of fixing.

John Bragg said:

Hi David, once fixer is on the turn you did right to dump it. Was there a bad smell like rotten eggs with it ? Personally I have never used a hardening fixer as I have always used the Ilford washing method. Never had a problem from non hardening fixer but hardening greatly increases washing times.

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I have some old fixer (unmixed, the Ilford liquid concentrate) that does smell and is cloudy, can I still use it ?

nextreme said:

I have some old fixer (unmixed, the Ilford liquid concentrate) that does smell and is cloudy, can I still use it ?

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I would not reccomend it.

nextreme said:

I have some old fixer (unmixed, the Ilford liquid concentrate) that does smell and is cloudy, can I still use it ?

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I recently mixed up a litre of fix at 1+4 from some old Ilford Rapid fix that looked clear in the concentrate. There were some hard crystals under the lid of the concentrate and as soon as I mixed it up it went cloudy.

I was in a hurry to process a test half-roll of Rollei Retro 80s and took a chance on using it. Big mistake. The particles suspended in the cloudy working strength fix trashed the film. The scans were crap and I would suspect that any moderate degree of enlargement when wet printing would also show up a snow storm. Wet gelatin is very sticky and I doubt that any amount of washing would remove particles stuck to the film.

I bought a new bottle of Rapid fix the next day. Getting hard to source basic chems in Sydney so I may have to resort to buying powder fix over the net as I don't fancy paying postage for litres of chems.

I'm wondering if I did the right thing to can this fixer after it processed just ten rolls of film and was only two months old. The only reason I considered it was the cloudy look. It still would clean a piece of film in just under one minute.

ColColt said:

I'm wondering if I did the right thing to can this fixer after it processed just ten rolls of film and was only two months old. The only reason I considered it was the cloudy look. It still would clean a piece of film in just under one minute.

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As Gerald has explained, the milkiness was most likely caused by sulfur going out of solution and forming tiny particles in the fixer. Had you used this fixer, chances are that these particles would have ended up in the emulsion which would have wrecked your negatives royally (unless you enjoy spotting for endless hours). If the fixer appeared still to be active, you could have tried to run it through a filter to remove the particles, but the stuff is so cheap it really doesn't make sense to take any risks.

What puzzles me is the fixer wasn't old...two months and only processed 10 rolls of film. It should have been able, according to all I've read, to process twice that amount in a liter. This was a 2 quarts.

ColColt said:

What puzzles me is the fixer wasn't old...two months and only processed 10 rolls of film. It should have been able, according to all I've read, to process twice that amount in a liter. This was a 2 quarts.

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Where did you buy it?
It may have sat on a shelf for a long time.
Cloudiness happens even in old, unused fixer.
Is there any sign of cloudiness in the rest of the unmixed concentrate?
By the way, Kodak says that a litre of Rapid Fixer mixed to film strength at 1+3 has the capacity to fix 32 rolls of 135-36 film. I would halve that for T-Max.

I got it from Freestyle. I don't have anymore of the unmixed concentrate-that was it. I don't use T-Max, primarily Tri-X, HP-5 and FP-4.

BTW-I never dilute Rapid Fix. I mix it per the instructions and use it straight.

I looked at the fresh unopened box of another batch I have that's not been used yet or mixed and there's a code/date on the side of the box that reads 1506015. No idea what that means.

ColColt said:

BTW-I never dilute Rapid Fix. I mix it per the instructions and use it straight.

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Which instructions? The instructions provide for two possible dilutions - essentially 1+3 for film working strength, or 1+7 for paper working strength (factoring out the hardener).