Clouding/density on edge of 120 film

Camerarabbit · May 28, 2020

Hello all,

This is an issue that I've experienced quite a bit over the years, and while I'm 99% sure I'm aware of what it is now, I'm not sure if there are any additional tricks I can do to address it.

Often, when I process my black and white 120 film in Paterson plastic tanks (HP5 and Sprint developer), some of my images will have what appears to be a sort of fogging or density on the corners, please see https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kcubezlq3qnzll3/AACiRzdX3Ujplv1gvKNi79sDa?dl=0

I was told by a very good and experienced photographer that this is caused from the plastic reels creating uneven development and too much density on the edges. I've also been told that when agitating, it's important to agitate in a chaotic manner to disrupt the directional flow of the liquid and to create a more even development. I've been told that metal reels are better than plastic, and to never use one of those 8 reel tanks. While I'm not willing to go to metal at the moment, I'm curious if anyone has any tricks for creating a more evenly processed neg.

Thanks for your help with this !

MattKing · May 28, 2020

This is copied from a conversation I exchanged with another photographer here, so if it seems familiar, it is!

"On the subject of agitation, it is important to arrive at a method that does a good job of randomizing the movement of fluid in your tank, while still being easy to accomplish consistently and repeatably.
For any sort of agitation, you want the solution to essentially tumble through the film and the reel. The tank should both invert and twist as well, and you should be able to hear the liquid move. I get the right sort of movement if I grab the top of the tank with one hand and the bottom of the tank with the other and then rotate my hands and wrists to cause the tank to be inverted, and then rotate them back.
I usually take two seconds to accomplish that inversion and return to vertical, and repeat that cycle two more times - a total of three inversions per batch of agitation.
I do one agitation batch every 30 seconds - essentially the Kodak recommendation. Others prefer to use a slightly longer agitation batch - say 5 inversions - but only once a minute - essentially the Ilford recommendation.
Either works well, although the Kodak version may be better for short development times. The important thing is to choose one and be consistent with it."

That being said, that looks more like a light leak to me than a problem with uneven agitation.
The sort of light leak one sees if the roll of 120 is too loose after you take it out of the camera.
Is the effect consistent across all frames, or more obvious at one end, or random?

And one further question - are you saying you are using 7 reel tanks?

Adrian Bacon · May 28, 2020

MattKing said:
This is copied from a conversation I exchanged with another photographer here, so if it seems familiar, it is!

"On the subject of agitation, it is important to arrive at a method that does a good job of randomizing the movement of fluid in your tank, while still being easy to accomplish consistently and repeatably.
For any sort of agitation, you want the solution to essentially tumble through the film and the reel. The tank should both invert and twist as well, and you should be able to hear the liquid move. I get the right sort of movement if I grab the top of the tank with one hand and the bottom of the tank with the other and then rotate my hands and wrists to cause the tank to be inverted, and then rotate them back.
I usually take two seconds to accomplish that inversion and return to vertical, and repeat that cycle two more times - a total of three inversions per batch of agitation.
I do one agitation batch every 30 seconds - essentially the Kodak recommendation. Others prefer to use a slightly longer agitation batch - say 5 inversions - but only once a minute - essentially the Ilford recommendation.
Either works well, although the Kodak version may be better for short development times. The important thing is to choose one and be consistent with it."

That being said, that looks more like a light leak to me than a problem with uneven agitation.
The sort of light leak one sees if the roll of 120 is too loose after you take it out of the camera.
Is the effect consistent across all frames, or more obvious at one end, or random?

And one further question - are you saying you are using 7 reel tanks?

+1

what you do is less important as long as you consistently do it and it’s not causing issues. I agree with Matt, that doesn’t look like an agitation issue. Typically, an agitation issue would effect a lot more of the frame.

MattKing · May 28, 2020

I think I'll post that agitation recommendation as a Resource - that way I'll be able to link to it!

bdial · May 28, 2020

Have you eliminated fogging as a possible cause? For example, are you seeing a consistent pattern over several rolls? If so, the cause of the increased density is more likely fogging than agitation. Another tell-tale for fogging is if the density extends into the blank area at the edge of the film or between frames.

MattKing · May 28, 2020

Yes - may we see a digital photo of the negatives themselves, backlit, with the edge numbers/rebates visible.

grain elevator · May 28, 2020

Edit: Disregard, brain fart! I concur with the light leak/fogging hypothesis now.

Looks like not enough developer in the tank. The edge of the film stuck out, so it didn't get developed as much as most of the film, which was immersed also between agitation.
The reel could theoretically travel up in the tank, so that even with enough liquid, the film isn't immersed. My Paterson has too much friction for that. Or maybe it could with very forceful agitation.

Donald Qualls · May 28, 2020

Yep, looks like a light leak to me. From the posted image, it's not possible to tell whether it's in camera (hole in the bellows, if there is one?), "fat roll", or a darkroom fogging accident. The fact you've seen it multiple times suggests its either a procedural problem (light source in the darkroom or dark bag where you load your film) or a long standing camera problem (bad door or hinge seals, leaking bellow, shiny area inside the camera scattering out of frame light onto the film, etc.). We'd need a photo of the affected negative and the frames before and after, including the edge rebates, to draw more conclusions.

Camerarabbit · May 28, 2020

Hi all, thanks for your thoughts. You are all probably right about it being a light leak, photos of my negs are @ https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kcubezlq3qnzll3/AACiRzdX3Ujplv1gvKNi79sDa?dl=0
They're not on every frame. I was using a 4x5 camera with a medium format back, but the leak didnt appear in every shot, as you'll see, so maybe I need to be more careful about how I put the film shield back on. Any thoughts are appreciated

Camerarabbit · May 28, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Yep, looks like a light leak to me. From the posted image, it's not possible to tell whether it's in camera (hole in the bellows, if there is one?), "fat roll", or a darkroom fogging accident. The fact you've seen it multiple times suggests its either a procedural problem (light source in the darkroom or dark bag where you load your film) or a long standing camera problem (bad door or hinge seals, leaking bellow, shiny area inside the camera scattering out of frame light onto the film, etc.). We'd need a photo of the affected negative and the frames before and after, including the edge rebates, to draw more conclusions.

It has happened to me mostly with my Mamiya 7, but never with this camera before. Maybe I didnt roll the film tight enough?

MattKing · May 28, 2020

CameronRabbit said:
Maybe I didnt roll the film tight enough?

Certainly worth considering!

Donald Qualls · May 29, 2020

Generally, if you're getting loose rolls, it's because whatever mechanism your camera has to keep tension on the film isn't working as it should. This will affect not only tightness of the roll (which, in all honestly, has to be pretty loose to generate noticeable light leaks), but the focus of your images -- if the film lacks a little tension, it's likely not to be flat across the image plane.

bunip · May 29, 2020

I have a similar experience but my problem looks like many little bubbles accumulating along the plastic border along the reel resulting in small dots (randomly plus or minus) in blue skyes; if not in the sky it's not detectable. This happens with different cameras (mamiya 6, rollei, mamiya press, agfa super isolette, pentacon six, and different films (HP5, FP4 And Acros100). I tryed to fill more the tank, to process only one film at time, to change developer, but.. it's impredictable. I'm afrait it happens once every 2-3 rolls, but i can detect this problem only in a blue sky if the frame has the skyline along the plastic reel (so not often with the rollei where I should take the picture turned 90°, as sometime happened).

BrianShaw · May 29, 2020

I’m a day late (and dollar short) ... without seeing pictures of what the edge density looks like, Or knowing additional details of camera, film, and handling... I’d suspect light leakage on film edges before agitation issues. For me that’s been the most frequent cause. Sometimes it has been a camera fault, but some films have been more prone than others.

Camerarabbit · May 29, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Yep, looks like a light leak to me. From the posted image, it's not possible to tell whether it's in camera (hole in the bellows, if there is one?), "fat roll", or a darkroom fogging accident. The fact you've seen it multiple times suggests its either a procedural problem (light source in the darkroom or dark bag where you load your film) or a long standing camera problem (bad door or hinge seals, leaking bellow, shiny area inside the camera scattering out of frame light onto the film, etc.). We'd need a photo of the affected negative and the frames before and after, including the edge rebates, to draw more conclusions.

Looking at the roll now, and only the last three exposures had this slight light leak. So I'm thinking I didnt roll it tight enough.

Camerarabbit · May 29, 2020

BrianShaw said:
I’m a day late (and dollar short) ... without seeing pictures of what the edge density looks like, Or knowing additional details of camera, film, and handling... I’d suspect light leakage on film edges before agitation issues. For me that’s been the most frequent cause. Sometimes it has been a camera fault, but some films have been more prone than others.

Thanks !

Camerarabbit · May 29, 2020

bunip said:
I have a similar experience but my problem looks like many little bubbles accumulating along the plastic border along the reel resulting in small dots (randomly plus or minus) in blue skyes; if not in the sky it's not detectable. This happens with different cameras (mamiya 6, rollei, mamiya press, agfa super isolette, pentacon six, and different films (HP5, FP4 And Acros100). I tryed to fill more the tank, to process only one film at time, to change developer, but.. it's impredictable. I'm afrait it happens once every 2-3 rolls, but i can detect this problem only in a blue sky if the frame has the skyline along the plastic reel (so not often with the rollei where I should take the picture turned 90°, as sometime happened).

Yes, this is exactly what I've experienced! Though I think this instance was a light leak, like everyone was saying...

Donald Qualls · May 29, 2020

If your rolls aren't tight enough, you need to check the spring leaf or other device on the supply side of your camera or film back. This should make contact even on an empty spool, to ensure some slight tension on the film and backing until the backing paper pulls off the supply spool at the end of the roll. If that's not the case, at whatever point the friction spring (or foam, or in some cameras just the clamping force of the spring on the end of the spool) loses contact your takeup roll will start to get loose.

An old Holga trick that works with many other roll film cameras is to glue a small piece of foam into the supply chamber, sized so it just bears on an empty spool, and soft enough it will easily compress to accommodate a fresh one. The same on the takeup side won't come amiss.

bunip · May 29, 2020

I'm talking about bubbles accumulating on the film along the reel during development. Tight rolls doesn't matter

Donald Qualls · May 29, 2020

bunip said:
I'm talking about bubbles accumulating on the film along the reel during development. Tight rolls doesn't matter

I was replying to the OP, not to you.

bunip · May 29, 2020

I'm sorry

bunip · May 29, 2020

I've seen now OP's negatives and that to me looks like light leak. Probably as everyone here already said due to untight rolls.

Sirius Glass · May 29, 2020

I had that problem until I started taking the exposed 120 rolls and putting them into black plastic cases and that stopped the light from piping in and fogging the edges. I have only had the problem on 120 film and not 135.

MattKing · May 29, 2020

CameronRabbit said:
Looking at the roll now, and only the last three exposures had this slight light leak. So I'm thinking I didnt roll it tight enough.

The last three exposures are nearest the centre of the film spool when the camera is loaded, and nearest the outside of the roll when the camera is un-loaded.
It might just be your technique when unloading the camera, removing the roll, and then sealing it with the tape.
Some cameras are much easier to unload than others, and anyone can stumble.

Bormental · May 29, 2020

bunip said:
I'm sorry

BTW I am experiencing **exactly** the same issue you're having. Perhaps its worth posting a top-level question to start a new thread? I do not want to hijack this one, but I am really tired of those white dots too!

Clouding/density on edge of 120 film

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