Cloth Shutter - Advantage or Just Old Technology?

Pioneer · Mar 21, 2013

My M6 Shutter has burn holes in the curtain. I did it so it is certainly my own fault, but it got me thinking about the Leica camera mystique. How is it possible for people to claim that the Leica camera is so reliable when it doesn't take much to burn holes in the shutter. Face it, the solution to this certainly is not new technology. My Contax II has shutter curtains that won't burn and it was built in the mid-30s.

I'll certainly get the curtains replaced, after all it is a decent little camera. But my erroneous presumption of excellent build quality has taken a serious hit. I know that I will be using my Zeiss Ikon a whole lot more going forward. At least I won't have to worry about the shutter curtains holding up.

So the point behind this little post is this. Why has Leica insisted on staying with the cloth shutter all this time? They know it is very susceptible to being burnt. Is this only a way to keep their technicians happy or was there a real reason behind keeping this shutter on the camera all this time? They are no more accurate than other types of shutter. Theoretically they are quieter in operation, but compared to just about any leaf shutter they sound like a gun going off in a quiet room. So why persist when other, more durable shutters were available?

rbultman · Mar 21, 2013

I'm just guessing here, but cloth is probably easier to manufacture than a metal foil shutter making it cheaper. It probably has a lower mass allowing faster shutter speeds. And, cloth probably withstands minor abuse better than metal. But, these are just guesses.

PhotoJim · Mar 21, 2013

rbultman said:
I'm just guessing here, but cloth is probably easier to manufacture than a metal foil shutter making it cheaper. It probably has a lower mass allowing faster shutter speeds. And, cloth probably withstands minor abuse better than metal. But, these are just guesses.

I don't think cloth allows faster shutter speeds. I've never seen a cloth shutter that could handle really fast shutter speeds like 1/4000 or 1/8000 sec. (I don't think I've ever seen one that had 1/2000 sec. either, but they may exist.)

One significant advantage of a cloth shutter that comes to mind that seems relevant to Leica M bodies would be noise. Cloth shutters are quieter than metal ones. For street reportage, noisiness is probably an issue photographers want to avoid in a lot of cases, and they don't likely care if they have a 1/4000 sec. shutter speed.

Pioneer · Mar 21, 2013

My Pentax LX has a horizontal, cloth shutter and it goes as high as 1/2000 seconds, so I know that much can be done. But I do believe that higher speeds will require that the shutter at least run in the vertical (shorter) direction, though I suspect that could still happen with cloth.

Noise is certainly an issue. The Leica cloth shutter is quiet and there are probably sound studies out there to prove how quiet it is. But the metal shutter in my Contax II is very quiet as well. The slow speed mechanism can contribute to the noise on the slower shutter speed but that happens in the Leica as well. My Zeiss Ikon shutter, which is metal, is very quiet but the sound is certainly different.

I have always suspected that the cloth shutter was quite a bit less complex then the metal shutter which reduced the cost to manufacture, but you sure wouldn't guess that based on the cost of the camera.

More to my point however is the reliability. To my way of thinking a cloth shutter in any rangefinder camera, particularly one that sells at Leica's price point, is a very weak link in an otherwise well constructed camera. I mean I can understand it from a design perspective during the Barnack years. To change shutter construction in that camera would have been difficult. But they made the change to the M3 in 1954, for sure by then the weakness of the cloth shutter was very well known. They could easily have made the change at that point. Instead it persists to this day being manufactured in the M7 and MP. The digital cameras finally have a different shutter design, so we know it can be done, but the other two still soldier right along with that same cloth shutter.

Why?

michaelbsc · Mar 22, 2013

Pioneer said:
My M6 Shutter has burn holes in the curtain. I did it so it is certainly my own fault, but it got me thinking about the Leica camera mystique. How is it possible for people to claim that the Leica camera is so reliable when it doesn't take much to burn holes in the shutter. Face it, the solution to this certainly is not new technology. My Contax II has shutter curtains that won't burn and it was built in the mid-30s.

I'll certainly get the curtains replaced, after all it is a decent little camera. But my erroneous presumption of excellent build quality has taken a serious hit. I know that I will be using my Zeiss Ikon a whole lot more going forward. At least I won't have to worry about the shutter curtains holding up.

So the point behind this little post is this. Why has Leica insisted on staying with the cloth shutter all this time? They know it is very susceptible to being burnt. Is this only a way to keep their technicians happy or was there a real reason behind keeping this shutter on the camera all this time? They are no more accurate than other types of shutter. Theoretically they are quieter in operation, but compared to just about any leaf shutter they sound like a gun going off in a quiet room. So why persist when other, more durable shutters were available?

Be Zen about it. Fix the burn holes and shoot. My M2 had holes too, and that's what I did. Unless they're huge, of course. Then it's hard unless you replace them as you mention.

I think the reason they stuck with it was mystique.

Pioneer · Mar 22, 2013

Oh, I think I am being relatively accepting of the situation, silly as it seems. There were four beautiful burn holes spaced right across the center of the curtain with the white meter dot so the camera is on its way to Youxin right now for curtain replacement. Patching was definitely not in the cards. When I get The camera back I will decide what to do at that point. There are a lot of things that Leica did right with the M6 so I may decide I can live with potential burn holes. Or maybe not. But it still seems odd to me that Leica would accept this state of affairs for so long.

L Gebhardt · Mar 22, 2013

Just curious, but do the burn holes happen when you are composing with sun in the picture, or is more likely when you are just carrying the camera around? If the latter, you could try to get in the habit of setting the focus ring to a near distance. If the former, I guess you just need to leave the sun out of the image?

Pioneer · Mar 22, 2013

To be honest I am not sure how it happened. From the film record it happened right after I took a couple of indoor shots. I went outside in the afternoon and was taking some pictures of the grandkids in the late afternoon and it is quite likely that when I went outdoors the lens aperture was pretty much wide open. There are several black frames and then the following frames all have black spots on them. I rarely use a lens cap, and I use a fast lens, so I suspect that is all that is necessary. I'm just going to have to either be a lot more careful when the sun is out or sell the M6 and start using the Zeiss Ikon instead.

CGW · Mar 22, 2013

Always puzzled me, too. I bought a mint late Nikon F from an elderly friend a few years ago and still see its titanium foil shutter as a minor miracle. Couldn't separate him from his SP rangefinder which was the first(?) use of titanium for a shutter, according to him. A very sweet classic RF camera.

On the Leica mystique:

A Critic at Large: Candid Camera : The New Yorker

Pioneer · Mar 23, 2013

CGW said:
Always puzzled me, too. I bought a mint late Nikon F from an elderly friend a few years ago and still see its titanium foil shutter as a minor miracle. Couldn't separate him from his SP rangefinder which was the first(?) use of titanium for a shutter, according to him. A very sweet classic RF camera.

On the Leica mystique:

A Critic at Large: Candid Camera : The New Yorker

Thanks for the link CGW. The author is certainly a romantic but he(she?) does a terrific job of describing that mysterious "something" that defines the Leica. To some degree that author is right. I try hard not to like the camera, but as much as it peeves me that it still sports a shutter curtain that is so easily and quickly destroyed, I do like using the camera.

But I am convinced that much of the attraction is based on the cult surrounding the camera. It is certainly a good camera but there are others out there that are excellent cameras in their own right. The Contax, the Zeiss Ikon, the Bessa Rs, all of them are very capable cameras, probably deserving their own "cult." But that won't happen. Too bad, at least their shutter curtains are more durable.

CGW · Mar 23, 2013

Pioneer said:
Thanks for the link CGW. The author is certainly a romantic but he(she?) does a terrific job of describing that mysterious "something" that defines the Leica. To some degree that author is right. I try hard not to like the camera, but as much as it peeves me that it still sports a shutter curtain that is so easily and quickly destroyed, I do like using the camera.

But I am convinced that much of the attraction is based on the cult surrounding the camera. It is certainly a good camera but there are others out there that are excellent cameras in their own right. The Contax, the Zeiss Ikon, the Bessa Rs, all of them are very capable cameras, probably deserving their own "cult." But that won't happen. Too bad, at least their shutter curtains are more durable.

Then there's this problem:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/20/fashion/leica-cameras-favored-by-celebrities.html

Pioneer · Mar 23, 2013

Yeah, but that won't last. Holga will get smart and come out with a $2,000 Limited Edition Holga with gold plated printing and Holga will instantly be in and the Leicas will be sitting on the closet shelf.

CGW · Mar 23, 2013

Pioneer said:
Yeah, but that won't last. Holga will get smart and come out with a $2,000 Limited Edition Holga with gold plated printing and Holga will instantly be in and the Leicas will be sitting on the closet shelf.

So life-affirming to know I'm not alone on this one. Check will.i.am's signature iPhone camera product placement in his video("Scream and Shout") with Britney--just an infomercial with a good soundtrack!

Always $ to made off that herd of independent minds, no?

Pioneer · Mar 23, 2013

I wonder if those that are wearing the Leicas actually paid for them with their own cash or if Leica paid them to wear them?

michaelbsc · Mar 25, 2013

You know I almost hate to say this out loud, but I have some FED 2s that I had Eddie Smolov go through before he got sick.

No they aren't Leicas by a country mile. I drooled over, then finally bought, an M2. It blows the FEDs away in anyone's book. So I'm not saying they are in the same class.

But I'm not ashamed of the work I get from the FEDs. And I wouldn't feel bad if I needed to use one as a hammer to nail together a life raft one day.

The FEDs blow the Holga away. I can't even remember where I put the Holga.

I guess what I'm saying is that if one day I got "caught" in a group of "real" photographers with their Leicas and Holgas, and me without my Leica but only my lowly FED 2 I wouldn't feel the need to apologize. The mystic, for me at least, is still in the images. I marvel at the cave drawings and want to meet those folks.

Pioneer · Mar 25, 2013

I understand the feeling. I have a little Ansco Super Memar that has the Solagon 50/f2 fixed lens and a leaf shutter. It is certainly not in the same league as a Leica, but I challenge anyone to tell the images apart. The shutter is so quiet that the M6 sounds like a truck alongside it. If I really wanted to take pictures in church this is the camera I would carry. I know that most people do not see it as much of a camera at all, but I am certainly not ashamed of the results.

And I have never burned a hole in that shutter either.

indigo · Apr 9, 2013

Pioneer said:
My Pentax LX has a horizontal, cloth shutter and it goes as high as 1/2000 seconds, so I know that much can be done. But I do believe that higher speeds will require that the shutter at least run in the vertical (shorter) direction, though I suspect that could still happen with cloth.

Noise is certainly an issue. The Leica cloth shutter is quiet and there are probably sound studies out there to prove how quiet it is. But the metal shutter in my Contax II is very quiet as well. The slow speed mechanism can contribute to the noise on the slower shutter speed but that happens in the Leica as well. My Zeiss Ikon shutter, which is metal, is very quiet but the sound is certainly different.

I have always suspected that the cloth shutter was quite a bit less complex then the metal shutter which reduced the cost to manufacture, but you sure wouldn't guess that based on the cost of the camera.

More to my point however is the reliability. To my way of thinking a cloth shutter in any rangefinder camera, particularly one that sells at Leica's price point, is a very weak link in an otherwise well constructed camera. I mean I can understand it from a design perspective during the Barnack years. To change shutter construction in that camera would have been difficult. But they made the change to the M3 in 1954, for sure by then the weakness of the cloth shutter was very well known. They could easily have made the change at that point. Instead it persists to this day being manufactured in the M7 and MP. The digital cameras finally have a different shutter design, so we know it can be done, but the other two still soldier right along with that same cloth shutter.

Why?

No Sir! The pentax LX does have a horizontal travel but Titanium shutter curtain and not cloth.

indigo · Apr 9, 2013

Why??? The Leica is all about staying the same and not advances. You see they made the M3 and then made the M2 afterward. They put the meter in the M5 and then took it out in the M4-P. Put in a new style rewind crank only to put the old style knob back on the MP
One thing though, cloth curtain is very tough my brother once try to break it but couldn't. Try to stick your finger in one of those titanium shutter and it's gone.

Pioneer · Apr 10, 2013

Indigo said:
One thing though, cloth curtain is very tough my brother once try to break it but couldn't. Try to stick your finger in one of those titanium shutter and it's gone.

I'm not sure that you are supposed to stick your finger in any of the shutters. I don't know about how tough the Leica shutter is, all I know is that the sun will burn holes in it in no time. I have been shooting with the Zeiss Ikon for the last 3 weeks, carrying it everywhere, and have had no problems.

The M6 is a very nice camera, but it is no nicer to work with than the Zeiss Ikon, or my Contax rangefinders, and they all have metal blade shutter curtains.

And by the way Indigo, you are right, I made a terrible error. My LX does have titanium curtains. Don't understand why I made that mistake other than I am probably getting too old and beginning to lose my memory.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 10, 2013

cloth keepsit quiet. fire-proof was not part of the specification. that belongs into the category of 'un expected customer abuse'.

Pioneer · Apr 10, 2013

ralphlambrecht said:
cloth keepsit quiet. fire-proof was not part of the specification. that belongs into the category of 'un expected customer abuse'.

Unexpected for sure, abuse I am not so sure of. More like "sure to happen eventually." Some of us just weren't cut out to really enjoy the "finer" things.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 5, 2014

how do people burn holes into shutters?

CGW · Jan 5, 2014

ralphlambrecht said:
how do people burn holes into shutters?

Dunno but it happens.

The "problem" was worrisome enough to prompt Nikon to put titanium foil shutters on their rangefinders. Same technology carried over to the F SLR.

Doyle Thomas · Jan 5, 2014

I have two Minolta XE-7's, a spin off of the M6 with the same look and feel but with a metal shutter. Prolly the nicest features are the film advance bypass that allows recocking the shutter without moving the film (multi exposure) and the full film advance with a single stroke of the lever.

Pioneer · Jan 6, 2014

ralphlambrecht said:
how do people burn holes into shutters?

Turns out it isn't really that tough. Aim a Leica camera at something with the sun in the lens for a period of time, not so long it seems, and the lens focuses enough heat on the cloth shutter curtain to burn pinholes in it.

I have had it happen twice. Once I was doing some photography with the sun over my granddaughter's shoulder, shining through the boughs of a pine tree, and ended up burning several pinholes in the shutter curtain of my Leica III. I tried to patch it myself but eventually just gave up and sent it in for replacement. The second time I left my M6 lying on the seat next to me with the lens pointed upwards with no lens cover. Voila, holes in the shutter curtain. Of course this time it was the curtain with the white target that the photo sensor in the M6 takes its reading from so this one was a touch more expensive to repair than the first time.

Since those events I have been far more careful and have avoided a recurrence. Unfortunately, deep in my heart, I know it will almost certainly happen again someday as long as I continue to toy with Leicas.

Needless to say I spend far more time with the Zeiss Ikon ZM and the Contax II and IIa as these cameras are not subject to this problem. This was one of the reasons I raised the issue in the first place. The Contax II, built in the mid-30s, solved the burning shutter curtain issue by using metal shutter blinds. In the 50s Leica made a big change with the intro of the M3. You would think that they could have come up with a better shutter solution when they made that change since this was a very well known problem.

Cloth Shutter - Advantage or Just Old Technology?

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