Clearing Fabriano Artistico EW (Platinum/Palladium)

Davec101 · Dec 24, 2010

Until the new batch of Platine is made available which i am told should be Febuary I have been trying other papers namely Fabraino Artistico EW, i like this paper however I am finding clearing is more challenging than other papers such as platine and cot 320. It is more apparent now that i am printing with clean borders so I need to find a reliable clearing method that leaves no stain whatsoever.

I am soaking the paper in 2% oxalic acid for 15 mins. The clearing cycle i am using at the moment is with citric acid (3%), hydrochloric acid (3%), citric acid (3%) sodium sulphate (3%) then an hour in the print washer. Each bath is around 4mins with agitation. This seems to be effective but there is still a slight yellow stain.

Does anyone else have another clearing cycle that might be effective? I am thinking of decreasing the oxalic acid pre soak time to see if that has effect.

thanks

PVia · Dec 24, 2010

Dave,

I use citric acid, then two baths of Kodak HCA and a 30 min wash. It usually clears fine for me, but I will mention that newer batches of Fab EW have been challenging, especially needing stronger and longer acidification.

Davec101 · Dec 24, 2010

PVia said:
Dave,

I use citric acid, then two baths of Kodak HCA and a 30 min wash. It usually clears fine for me, but I will mention that newer batches of Fab EW have been challenging, especially needing stronger and longer acidification.

Thanks will give it a try, how long are your baths, 5 mins each with agitation? I will lower the acidification time to 10 mins to see if that has an effect. Are you printing clean boarders? I am using the batches of Fab EW made in 2009.

pschwart · Dec 24, 2010

I find that a 3 minute soak in 1.5% oxalic acid is sufficient to acidify Artistico, so 15 minutes is a *very* long soak.
The following works to clear my prints:

- citric acid (2-3 TBSP/quart) 2-3 minutes (optional)
- EDTA + sodium sulphite (1-2 TBSP/quart of each) 4-5 minutes
- Kodak hypo clearing agent 4-5 minutes (Permawash also works fine but
is more expensive)

Davec said:
Until the new batch of Platine is made available which i am told should be Febuary I have been trying other papers namely Fabraino Artistico EW, i like this paper however I am finding clearing is more challenging than other papers such as platine and cot 320. It is more apparent now that i am printing with clean borders so I need to find a reliable clearing method that leaves no stain whatsoever.

I am soaking the paper in 2% oxalic acid for 15 mins. The clearing cycle i am using at the moment is with citric acid (3%), hydrochloric acid (3%), citric acid (3%) sodium sulphate (3%) then an hour in the print washer. Each bath is around 4mins with agitation. This seems to be effective but there is still a slight yellow stain.

Does anyone else have another clearing cycle that might be effective? I am thinking of decreasing the oxalic acid pre soak time to see if that has effect.

thanks

PVia · Dec 25, 2010

I normally do as you say, Philip, but this last batch is very different than those in the past.

Dave, 5 minutes in each bath, give or take...and yes, clean borders.

CraigK · Dec 25, 2010

Since I coat on fixed-out baryta paper which can sometimes be tougher to clear than cotton paper, I have tried all kinds of clearing agents. Most can be made to work but the one I found to be the most effective (if not the cheapest) is Iford Wash Aid. I usually dilute it about 1:10 but if the print is very stubborn, I will dilute it much less or even pour a bit of it directly onto the print straight out of the jug.

I have a (dwindling) supply of the old stuff. But I think Ilford reformulated it a few years back and replaced the EDTA with DTPA. Both are chelating agents, but I have not done much with the new stuff, so I am not sure if it is as effective as the old. If not, you could always add a pinch of EDTA to it.

Anyway, it should be worth a try. I get squeeky clean borders with Wash Aid.

donbga · Dec 25, 2010

Davec said:
Until the new batch of Platine is made available which i am told should be Febuary I have been trying other papers namely Fabraino Artistico EW, i like this paper however I am finding clearing is more challenging than other papers such as platine and cot 320. It is more apparent now that i am printing with clean borders so I need to find a reliable clearing method that leaves no stain whatsoever.

I am soaking the paper in 2% oxalic acid for 15 mins. The clearing cycle i am using at the moment is with citric acid (3%), hydrochloric acid (3%), citric acid (3%) sodium sulphate (3%) then an hour in the print washer. Each bath is around 4mins with agitation. This seems to be effective but there is still a slight yellow stain.

Does anyone else have another clearing cycle that might be effective? I am thinking of decreasing the oxalic acid pre soak time to see if that has effect.

thanks

I will offer two bits of advice:

After draining the developer place the print directly into a 3% solution of citric acid. Do not use a water wash at this point. Clear for 5 minutes. Next clear the print in a second citric acid bath again without any intervening water wash.

After the second citric acid bath wash for 5 minutes. IMO, using hydrochloric acid is bad for the paper though my observation is purely anecdotal.

Follow that with a bath in Kodak hypo clearing agent 1:4, Permawash or a home made version of the same. Final wash in slow running water for 15 minutes.

Inspect the print with a loupe on a light table or box after drying to check for residual stain of ferric compounds.

Don Bryant

Davec101 · Dec 27, 2010

Thanks for all the feedback i will be trying the various options mentioned and post the results.

dwross2 · Dec 27, 2010

PVia said:
I normally do as you say, Philip, but this last batch is very different than those in the past.

Dave, 5 minutes in each bath, give or take...and yes, clean borders.

I don't know anything about Pt/Pd printing, so I don't know for sure what is meant by 'clearing', but I hope it has something to do with the paper's sizing. FabX had been my favorite paper for years. I coat a gelatin-based emulsion for my work, and I would have sworn that Fabriano paper was foolproof. About nine months ago, I bought a 100 sheets, and I had nothing but trouble with it. The emulsion went down and dried fine, but then formed blisters during processing. I have to assume that a change in the paper's factory sizing recipe is the culprit. I put the FabX paper in storage and switched to Arches, which has been working great, but I'd love to 'rescue' all that expensive Fab paper.

Sorry for the long lead-in to my question, but do y'all who understand the paper better than I think that your clearing steps will remove the offending sizing prior to coating?

d

donbga · Dec 28, 2010

dwross said:
I don't know anything about Pt/Pd printing, so I don't know for sure what is meant by 'clearing', but I hope it has something to do with the paper's sizing. FabX had been my favorite paper for years. I coat a gelatin-based emulsion for my work, and I would have sworn that Fabriano paper was foolproof. About nine months ago, I bought a 100 sheets, and I had nothing but trouble with it. The emulsion went down and dried fine, but then formed blisters during processing. I have to assume that a change in the paper's factory sizing recipe is the culprit. I put the FabX paper in storage and switched to Arches, which has been working great, but I'd love to 'rescue' all that expensive Fab paper.

Sorry for the long lead-in to my question, but do y'all who understand the paper better than I think that your clearing steps will remove the offending sizing prior to coating?

d

No. I would either look for another paper or try gelatin sizing the FAEW and see if that helps your use, though that's probably not what you were wanting to hear. If you wish I can send you a couple of sheets of FAEW already sized and hardened.

Don

dwross2 · Dec 28, 2010

Thanks for the straightup answer, Don. And sincerest thanks for the offer of your tweaked paper. Unfortunately, Fabriano (at least the 140 lb that I use) is just on the cusp already of being too thick and stiff to work well as printing paper by the time it gets one coat of emulsion. I suspect the extra sizing and hardening will throw it over the edge. I think my next step will be to try to wash out the internal sizing. Hopefully, that can be done without ruining the lovely surface texture. Wishes to you for a very Happy and Creative New Year. d

donbga · Dec 28, 2010

dwross said:
Thanks for the straightup answer, Don. And sincerest thanks for the offer of your tweaked paper. Unfortunately, Fabriano (at least the 140 lb that I use) is just on the cusp already of being too thick and stiff to work well as printing paper by the time it gets one coat of emulsion. I suspect the extra sizing and hardening will throw it over the edge. I think my next step will be to try to wash out the internal sizing. Hopefully, that can be done without ruining the lovely surface texture. Wishes to you for a very Happy and Creative New Year. d

FWIW Denise, my sized and hardened FAEW ( and others) is soft as a baby's bottom since I harden with glut.

As for washing out the internal size with FAEW I've not been able to do that though I guess I've not checked to see if I have. I pre-shrink the FAEW in parent size sheets in a super large bath tub twice for 30 minutes at a time in luke warm water. The sheets are carefully inter-leaved every 5 minutes to insure consistent soaking since a 10 sheet stack clumps together when wet. The sheets are then hung to dry after each presoak and stacked carefully in a flat file drawer underneath a heavy stack of paper to flatten the sheets.

Once that is done each parent sheet receives a 3% gelatin coat - 37 ml per sheet. When the hot gelatin is applied it has a watery consistency and is brushed evenly with a 4 inch foam brush.

That's the general details, perhaps you may still be interested. If so let me know and I can send a couple of 11x14 sheets.

Don

dwross2 · Dec 29, 2010

Don Bryant said:
my sized and hardened FAEW ( and others) is soft as a baby's bottom

!

I'm going to follow your directions here to the letter and see if it works for my batch of paper. My problem with the paper didn't appear until this latest lot, and you may not be working with the same stuff, but I'd love to see and feel a sheet of your baby-tush paper. I'll pm my snail address.

Thanks again,
d

Ron-san · Jan 5, 2011

Don Bryant said:
After draining the developer place the print directly into a 3% solution of citric acid. Do not use a water wash at this point. Clear for 5 minutes. Next clear the print in a second citric acid bath again without any intervening water wash.

After the second citric acid bath wash for 5 minutes. IMO, using hydrochloric acid is bad for the paper though my observation is purely anecdotal.

Follow that with a bath in Kodak hypo clearing agent 1:4, Permawash or a home made version of the same. Final wash in slow running water for 15 minutes.

Don Bryant

Don-- Following your instructions I have had no trouble clearing both Fabriano Artistico and Rising Stonehenge. My problem is that I cannot get a decent black with either paper. I have tried pre-soaking in 3% citric acid to no effect (it gets a better black, but still not very good). I do not have oxalic acid on hand but wonder whether one simple organic acid is better than another?

What do you recommend to get the same rich blacks on Artistico that I routinely and easily get on Arches Platine? Any and all suggestions from the community are welcome.

Thanks, Ron Reeder

pschwart · Jan 5, 2011

I got a poor dmax using citric acid, but I can achieve a dmax of log 1.5+ after soaking in 1.5% oxalic acid for 3 minutes. I recall testing Rives BFK and Artistico Extra White; I'd have to check my notes to see if I tested others.

Have a look at this thread -- there was a lot of discussion about acid presoaking ...
http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986&highlight=citric&page=5

Ron-san said:
Don-- Following your instructions I have had no trouble clearing both Fabriano Artistico and Rising Stonehenge. My problem is that I cannot get a decent black with either paper. I have tried pre-soaking in 3% citric acid to no effect (it gets a better black, but still not very good). I do not have oxalic acid on hand but wonder whether one simple organic acid is better than another?

What do you recommend to get the same rich blacks on Artistico that I routinely and easily get on Arches Platine? Any and all suggestions from the community are welcome.

Thanks, Ron Reeder

Ron-san · Jan 6, 2011

pschwart said:
Have a look at this thread -- there was a lot of discussion about acid presoaking ...
http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1986&highlight=citric&page=5

Thanks for reminding me of that thread. Mucho discussion and food for thought. Back to the darkroom for testing. Ron Reeder

PVia · Jan 7, 2011

Ron-san said:
Don-- Following your instructions I have had no trouble clearing both Fabriano Artistico and Rising Stonehenge. My problem is that I cannot get a decent black with either paper. I have tried pre-soaking in 3% citric acid to no effect (it gets a better black, but still not very good). I do not have oxalic acid on hand but wonder whether one simple organic acid is better than another?

What do you recommend to get the same rich blacks on Artistico that I routinely and easily get on Arches Platine? Any and all suggestions from the community are welcome.

Thanks, Ron Reeder

Unless the batch of Fab paper is squirrelly, which happened to the last bunch, I acidify in a 3% solution for 3 minutes. Last time I had to up it to about 8% for 10 minutes or more (don't have my notes in front of me right now), but still got wonderful deep blacks.

I humidify the dried coated paper over a steam kettle before exposing, and use a clear plastic mylar sheet under the paper in the frame, whether contac tor vacuum.

Clearing Fabriano Artistico EW (Platinum/Palladium)

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