Cleaning or repairing dirty shutters

I don't know about that particular model, but the Prontor Press shutters I've owned had gummed up shutter blades. It was pretty easy to clean them by opening the back and taking them out to clean. It is easiest to replace the blades when the shutter is in the closed position, and the "extra" blade goes on top of the first one you put in after putting the rest in clockwise.

Jon

wombat2go said:

The term petrol and gasoline in a 1957 translation from Gauthier's German manual surely refers to the automotive fuels. the English term was "white spirit" otherwise.
At that time, petrol (as I recall, both grades) contained tetra-ethyl-lead plus other additives including upper cylinder lubricants.
I grew up in my father's auto dealership/workshop and to clean things including small parts they used half/half petrol/kerosine in a high air pressure spray gun.
Flammable and a health hazard (although those guys lived long ! ) it sure got the parts clean and probably left some lube on the surface.

I haven't opened the Prontor SVS here but from what I can see it is not up to the quality of the Graflex Wollensak ones here.

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Tom1956 said:

Early on in the disassembly process, I am proceeding carefully. This job WILL turn out correctly. With some previous study of the exploded diagrams on this one, the manufacturer was so kind as to have made them. It's actually step numbered. Adding to this, I laid the slightly disassembled shutter face down on the scanner, brought it into Photoshop and re-sized it for a full-sheet output on 8 1/2 x 11 10pt C1S in Indesign and ran it to the color copier. Now I have a big full-color blow-up of the shutter, and from there, it is simply a matter of pulling parts and laying them on shop rags in order. Simple as pie.
I can do this, and it WILL turn out right.

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Great attitude!

I have a Graphex shutter from out of one of my Crown Graphics that has sat for too many years and needs a good cleaning. I have decided to send mine to Carol to disassemble and clean (and repair if needed) but I will be following your descriptions with intense interest.

And Good Luck!

Thank you. Now well into the process I am getting to some things that were beneath other things, to where I couldn't initially see them. In other words I feel it slipping away into confusion territory if I don't stop and make another scan and printed blow-up of where I am now. And of course, to continue layint the parts out on rags, in order. I can see myself able now to get down to the plate. And underneathe that plate I expect to find the shutter blades. That's what I'm after--those blades and their drive plate, or ring, or whatever you call it. I haven't decided whether to go further and fool with the diaphragm. As it is, I never had a complaint about that assembly.
But now I have to cook supper, so this may be a stopping point till tomorrow night. If I get it back together by the first of the week, I'll be happy. So far, so good. Had a tough little spring pop my finger a little, but that's because I refused to take my fingernail off the pivot point and let the spring fly away into oblivion.

Date 10-6-13, 2-4 days later than last post. People are waiting to read about this No 2 Graphex-X project for 135 Optar. It has been a pretty tedious project, which I followed exactly by the manual available online. I allowed no mistakes, and fortunately, there were none. I did a perfect job, and made no mistakes (uncommon for me). I was only concerned with that, regardless of outcome. But the outcome of it was no change. Disappointing. I only have proper accuracy at speeds 25 and 50. The slow speeds are still too fast, and the fast speeds are too slow. BUT, what I have here is a properly cleaned and lubricated mechanism. This provides a solid basis for swagging/filing of the speed cam (dial). And upon inspection I observe a previous service person has piddled around at this, but did not complete it properly. He swagged (raised cam surface) on the slow speeds, and filed cam surface on the fast ones. He should have done the reverse.
I should point out for future readers that of the several shutters I have tested, that the top speed as marked on the dial is rarely much faster than the next to last. (400 in not much faster than 200). When you see 400 or 500 at the top speed on an iris shutter, just laugh, because it isn't so.
For those of you with manual in hand and waiting for me to report it's accuracy, it IS pretty accurate. I caution you to pay careful attention to reassembling the part called "Blade lever spring". Be very careful to check for its ability to pivot when the screw is tightened down. This requires patience and a light touch. You can easily bend it while tightening the screw, and lock it into position, denying it of its needed movement. The result of this will be destruction of this spring in a short period of time. This spring is irreplaceable. Foul up this one step in the reassembly process is to ruin the project and throwing the whole shutter in the garbage.
This shutter project is not for the inexperienced worker. It was only because of my many years of electronic, mechanical, and automotive repair that I dared tackle this project. Beware.

Thanks Tom 1956. I have serious shaky hands so I seriously doubt I want to tackle this on my own, but I do find it very interesting. I have done a bit of work on some of my older and inexpensive Agfa folders with variable results. The first did not work out very well but the second is actually running though I have no idea if the speeds are accurate. I guess I should find a shutter tester so I can test it.

I will never be a camera tech but it is fun to play with my own stuff.

I just stumbled across this old thread looking for a Rapax service manual and to me, it reads like propaganda for a shutter repair guild. So far, I've managed to do the "solvent thing" to 6 shutters (working on #7 now!) and have been successful with all of them. I haven't met a shutter I couldn't fix yet! I will that admit 3 of those are compound shutters that are still a bit off at certain speeds, but I just made a chart of their equivalent speeds and they work great that way. The Compur, Copal, and Kodak shutters I've done in the past (all clockwork style) are all pretty spot on after a good cleaning. They are as accurate as they were when brand new.

Here's my method. You open it up to expose the parts. You don't have to take it fully apart, but enough to be able to see all of the parts inside. Keep everything you remove separated and in order. Take careful notes with a digital camera so you'll know how it all goes back together. Soak it in a coffee cup or bowl full of naphtha and vibrate the cup with a palm sander. Pull it out and clean any remaining oil you find with toothpicks soaked in naphtha. Clean larger area with q-tips, but make sure to remove any stray strands it leaves behind. Remove and let dry for 8-24 hours.

The lubticate sparingly with a series of lubricants. You can often tell what to lubricate and what not to and what kind of lubricant to use by paying attention to it when you take it apart. Be aware that sometime that lubricant will settle due to gravity if stored in a hot place, so obviously don't make another pool,of oil at the bottom of the case. I also like to look up service manuals for these shutters, or ones similar to them, for further help with where to lube and what kinds of lubes to use. Lubricate sparingly. Too much is often worse than not enough, but easy to reverse as new grease and oil cleans up with naphtha a lot better than the old dirty stuff. Then reassemble and test it with a shutter speed tester. I made mine for less than $10 out of mostly spare parts.

If parts are broken, you may have to buy a second, broken shutter for parts. I've had to do this once on an old compound #3, as not even Fluttots would repair it (I emailed them and they said it was unrepairable. I'm sure they could have if they wanted to, but it just wasn't worth their time to hunt down the replacement parts and they didn't have any on hand. It took me 3 months to find a decent donor shutter at a reasonable price).

So yeah, you definitely can do it yourself if you're patient, delicate, methodical, and willing to do some research. It may not be worth the time and hassle to everyone, but if you're like me and you enjoy doing projects like this, it's not rocket science. So I wouldn't tell people it can't be done. Just that you don't think it's worth it.

jim10219 said:

I just stumbled across this old thread looking for a Rapax service manual and to me, it reads like propaganda for a shutter repair guild.

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I detest using pure Naphtha or Liter fluid in a shutter. Many shutters have rubber and/or plastic parts that will be damaged by these solvents. 90% Isopropyl Alcohol works well and one of the best cleaners on the market is 60% alcohol 40% Naphtha.
Now, a Graphex is a Rapax rebadged and the parts are rotated 90° on the Graphex ie the mount alignment pin will be 90° off from the Graphex.
The #1 assembly instructions are out of sequence but following the #2 assembly skipping the parts/steps not used on the #1 will get it assembled correctly.

A ultrasonic cleaner for jewelry with 90% alcohol will clean as well as Naphtha. Repeated cycles will cause the alcohol to get hot and may cause the finish to peel off.

Tom1956 said:

........ every speed on it is nearly exactly 1/2 as fast as the dial says. That means whatever film you thought was ASA 100, is really ASA 50.

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If the shutter speed is 1/2 as fast, the exposure will be twice as long. So your 100ASA film has become a 200 ASA film.
Shutters in old cameras are always off, always too slow, at high speeds typically by half a stop, often even more. Expect a leaf shutter at 1/500 to be more like 1/350. They already were off even when brand new. For regular B&W photography this deviation is pretty irrelevant. A 1 stop overexposed negative on any common-purpose film will produce fine results. Unless you're shooting low-speed, high-contrast film, it's a non-issue.

shutterfinger said:

I detest using pure Naphtha or Liter fluid in a shutter. Many shutters have rubber and/or plastic parts that will be damaged by these solvents. 90% Isopropyl Alcohol works well and one of the best cleaners on the market is 60% alcohol 40% Naphtha.
Now, a Graphex is a Rapax rebadged and the parts are rotated 90° on the Graphex ie the mount alignment pin will be 90° off from the Graphex.
The #1 assembly instructions are out of sequence but following the #2 assembly skipping the parts/steps not used on the #1 will get it assembled correctly.

A ultrasonic cleaner for jewelry with 90% alcohol will clean as well as Naphtha. Repeated cycles will cause the alcohol to get hot and may cause the finish to peel off.

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Thanks for the tips! I've yet to run into a problem with the naphtha, but I think I'll switch to the 60/40 mix you suggested for future use. Usually, if there are paper or plastic iris blades or shutters, I remove them first. The iris blades can be a pain to reinstall, but if you've got patience and some tweezers, it's can be done. And subsequent times are no where near as bad.

Nothing beats a complete tear down, clean, lube, reassembly.

13 blade Compur apertures are a ........ test of skill.

Tom1956 said:

I wish I could think up a better title to this thread to get it to show up in the most internet searches on the subject of old, sluggish shutters. You know--the old lighter fluid trick; naptha, paint thinner, or your favorite potion. Well I have news for you: say you've done the lighter fluid trick and have got your shutter nice and snappy again, and you're happy.
Truth is, NOT A CHANCE. It's nowhere near accurate, I promise you. And if you go off and start your film speed and development testing based on that shutter, and reporting your results on these forums, then you're totally polluting the information supply. And your tests will be so fouled up, a good actual photograph will be 75% luck.
I performed an experiment and sat here for hours testing press and view camera shutters, and you won't believe how far off most of them are. Of note, I've got a Compur here for a 135 Schneider from a Graphic Special. Absolute mint, never-used condition. And every speed on it is nearly exactly 1/2 as fast as the dial says. That means whatever film you thought was ASA 100, is really ASA 50.
The moral is, to either make a shutter tester from the photodiode of an old computer mouse and find out what your speeds are, so you can paste a chart on the camera, or send the lens off for a proper CLA.
Good luck.

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Which, to me, brings up a question connected with this post. What is a good non-professional and reasonably accurate shutter-speed checker or should I ask does/did anyone make one that comes up used from time to time? There is no one that I can take my equipment to and get it checked. Of course, a big reason why Fred Picker and AA recommended checking, with the film that you plan to use, each lens/shutter in your inventory along with your processing procedure, thereby teaching you that being consistent in your work is more important than shutter accuracy and if you go that route, if something breaks or you make a mistake, it should show on the next roll of film.........Regards!....another question, are you sure that a CLA will assure you of accurate shutter speeds? Wouldn't an overhaul be better?

This thread is a bit full of b.s.

I have cleaned quite a few shutters over the years with Naptha/Coleman Stove Fuel. Put it in a Tupperware type container and soak the shutter with a lid on it. Shake it occasionally and you would be amazed at the junk that comes out of the shutter. I also operate the shutter while wet in the Naptha. A lot of gummed up shutters come completely back to life after cleaning this way, but some take time. I also have a shutter tester and a super clean shutter usually works really well, and by well I mean consistently. The problem with some old shutters is the springs tend to be a little weak due to age and having been left cocked during long periods. That is normal! Age does things to spring metal. Not all shutters can be brought back to full spec, and weren't even full spec when they were new.

I have a Compur shutter that I bought with a Tessar from the 30s that I cleaned probably 20 years ago and it still works fine. It now has a 300mm Rodenstock APO Ronar in it. No problems.

Patrick Robert James said:

I have cleaned quite a few shutters over the years with Naptha/Coleman Stove Fuel. Put it in a Tupperware type container and soak the shutter with a lid on it. Shake it occasionally and you would be amazed at the junk that comes out of the shutter.

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Good ole shade tree corner cuttin'. Try that in a professional repair shop and they will kick you out the door.

Patrick Robert James said:

I have a Compur shutter that I bought with a Tessar from the 30s that I cleaned probably 20 years ago and it still works fine. It now has a 300mm Rodenstock APO Ronar in it. No problems.

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Run it in a professional setting of 50 to 100 trip cycles a day and you might be surprised at how fast it slows down or dies.

oldtimermetoo said:

What is a good non-professional and reasonably accurate shutter-speed checker or should I ask does/did anyone make one that comes up used from time to time?

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https://graflex.org/helpboard/viewtopic.php?t=6105 source from an online electronics supply since Radio Shack has all but bit the dust. I have tested 1/1000 shutters with the tester I built before I started that thread. Film testing verified the tester to be accurate (18% gray card used for density verification).

oldtimermetoo said:

another question, are you sure that a CLA will assure you of accurate shutter speeds? Wouldn't an overhaul be better?

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No, it will only give it a good chance to. Springs are the only source of power in a shutter and they weaken with use. Wear only accounts for 15% to 20% of speed loss in most clean smooth running shutters the rest is spring tension loss until wear has increased to a significant level to produce sufficient drag. I do not know the limit where wear becomes the factor. Shutters like the Compur/Synchro Compur were built with tight tolerances, probably 1% to 3% depending on the machining of the day so an increase in play due to wear at 5% to 10% increase in bushing diameter/out of round pivot pins will likely cause speed slow down some.

A proper CLA does not guarantee a reliable shutter it increases the chances from 25% to 75% that the shutter will be reliable a few thousand trip cycles down the road.

It's your equipment, treat it as you wish. Users not familiar with the equipment need to know what type of advise they are getting, shade tree corner cutting, corner cutting, or professional service techniques.

Ron789 said:

..
Shutters in old cameras are always off, always too slow, at high speeds typically by half a stop, often even more. Expect a leaf shutter at 1/500 to be more like 1/350.
..

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According to my shutter tester, this is not true for some of my cameras. I have an Icarette Vest Pocket from the 20ies with a Compur shutter. Fastest nominal speed is 1/300. If I measure what I would call the effective exposure at full aperture the speed varies from around 1/250 to 1/350. At a small aperture, however, the time may be slower than 1/200.

I think it's fair to judge these old shutters with the slow film of old days in mind: it was hardly possible at that time to expose anything properly with the shutter speed at 1/300 and a small aperture.

As well as using old cameras I also collect (and occasionally service) old clocks and watches. Soaking complex mechanical mechanisms in solvents whether petrol, naphtha, paraffin or whatever is just hopeless. Invariably it won't get all of the dirt out and it will remove the tiny (but important) lubrication from where it should be. There is also the risk of moving dirt from one place to another. The dunk method may well get an old shutter working for a time but it is no substitute for proper disassembly, cleaning, lubrication and adjustment. Unfortunately, (like watchmaking) the skills required to service a shutter are getting scarce. Skilled craftsmen also have to earn a living so the repairs can be expensive because it is a time consuming process. This tends to mean that flea-market old cameras (and clocks and watches) get the dunk in solvent treatment because a proper service costs more than the camera did. It's understandable that people want to use these old cameras but IMHO it's best to either learn the skills to take a shutter apart and service it properly (skills I don't really have) or send it to a professional. I usually factor in the cost of professional overhaul when buying old cameras, watches and clocks -this tends to reduce the appeal of some "bargains"!

I have a dependable shutter timer which I have used for years. My shutters get tested to .001 seconds annually. Of course there is no way I can set the shutter to such a fine point, but I can set them to the nearest point and make a note on the lensboard re: accuracy. Every LF photographer should acquire or make one.