Cleaning dried negatives

After many rolls I’ve developed, hanged and cut, recently some rolls have started to have residues on them. Initially I thought I was scratching my rolls when I run them between my fingers to get rid off excess water but then I have tested few rolls without touching them, still some dust, fragments of fabric, even what I believe, a long hair stuck on them. All these sound nearly impossible to me, as the basement is nearly dust free and except me, nobody goes in there, and I’m bold. So not quite sure how hair stuck on the negative itself.

Long story short, I’d like to rewash them again with the hope the gelatine will soften up so the dirt will be released. How should I do, just in Ilfotol solution, or something else? Any recommendations?

BW,
Fatih

the clasic answer is Kodak Re-Wash formula. it is described in

Processing-KODAK-Motion-Picture-Films-Module-7​

Fatih Ayoglu said:

I’d like to rewash them again with the hope the gelatine will soften up so the dirt will be released

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That would be the way forward. Unfortunately, in my experience, once dust and debris embed themselves into the emulsion, they tend to be difficult to dislodge. It generally takes mechanical removing (wiping, brushing) to remove it all, and this of course brings the very big risk of damaging the emulsion itself. Very tough/resilient emulsions (e.g. Kodak Vision and Portra films) withstand gentle wiping with a finger/thumb in a weak bath of sodium carbonate. I sometimes use this approach if there's no other solution.

Pointing out the bleeding obvious: it's best to avoid the issue altogether, since it's very difficult to resolve once it's there.

Note that resolving issues with drying marks (effectively calcium carbonate /scale deposits on the shiny side of the film) is generally much easier. All it takes is a soak in a weak acid bath (acetic, citric) followed by a good wash routine and of course finishing in such a way as to avoid new deposits.

Faith,

Your basement is obviously not as dust-free as you'd like to believe. A drying cabinet or closet, or at least smaller area that you can limit the air-flow to would be a good idea going forward. If you have a small space you can dedicate to film drying, then you can get a simple air filter to run in the area when film is not drying to remove dust. When you're drying film, you don't want air moving around at all unless it's well-filtered.

As for your negatives, go ahead and give them a re-wash. Use a wash aid to get the emulsion to optimum swelling, then see if rinsing them under running water will take the dust/hair/etc. off. If not, then you can try gently rubbing the affected areas, with the awareness that scratches might happen. Do weigh the option of spotting prints or removing dust in post to the difficulty of dealing with scratches before you do this. You might just want to live with a dust spot or two.

Best,

Doremus

Thank you so much for your replies, much appreciated.

As I cannot solve the problem of limiting the airflow in the basement, my plan is to invest on a film dryer. As my basement is not high, the classic Marrutt cabinets are not an option however I’ve seen more like table top solutions like Marrutt RF35. I believe one dries the films in these, when the film is still on the reel instead of hanging them.

Is that a good solution at all? I shoot 35/120 and 4x5.

Otherwise, I’ll buy couple of MDF sheets and build a drying cabinet, with a simple lamp inside to heat and an extraction fan below to extract any air and intake from the top.

If you're only drying one or two rolls of film a week, a cabinet with an open bottom, but closed top and sides (with a door), with no fan or heater, would do just fine. An extraction fan requires a filter intake of air into the cabinet. I can't see any reason for a heat source, unless you need the negatives very quickly (hard to imagine that's the case).

I don't like the idea of anything MDF around film, unless thoroughly sealed - it outgasses formaldeyhyde from its binder or glue. I have used the white melamine coated version, which needs only edge sealing, and is essentially waterproof too. My own simple DIY film drying cabinet was a long box of melamine coated masonite, with a fine-mesh "permanent" coffee filter on the intake end, and the simplest sort of small room air cleaner pulling air out the other end. Inside were necessary suspension clips or hooks. No heater. It worked quite well.

Thanks both. Finding Melamine as 2 meter might be difficult, can I make a smaller one and dry films on reels? Is that a bad solution or should search for long Melamine sheets?

I've seen projects where people used PVC drainage tubing as a basis for a DIY drying cabinet. 2 meter long lengths of this stuff are easy to find.

Faith - you don't use solid melamine, but melamine as a factory baked coating on both sides of more common building sheet goods. It is a common option on metric equivalent thicknesses of 1/2 and 3/4 inch MDF, as well as 1/4 inch thick Masonite. It's made in China like most sheet goods nowadays, and presumably would be available in the UK too. But I don't know the cost there. Since the Germans and Italians make all sorts of special tooling and carbide I recently msaw blades for it, it is apparently a widespread kind of material in the EU as well as here in the US.

The disadvantage of pure plastics like PVC and ABS is that they're quite electrostatic. You can find long flexible tubing with a ground wire installed in it, intended for woodworking dust extraction devices. Plastic ducting also needs to be thoroughly cleaned inside and out before use; there is apt to be a residue of mould release compounds containing sulphur - very bad for silver emulsions. Some vinyls also contain long-term plasticizers which outgas.

Round ducting in general might be convenient for lengths of roll film, but not for 4x5 sheet film. For that, some kind of box-like construction would be preferable, with a length of monofilament fishing line inside acting like a clothesline from which the film can be suspended during drying.

If you do want to work with a more affordable totally plastic sheet material, I'd recommend Sintra, an ABS product which can be easily cut and thermoformed. I recently made a weatherproof cat house out of a leftover scrap of that. You can make a heat bending line with an ordinary heat gun, then fold it over a work table edge. Glueing it is easy with ordinary plumbing ABS or Multipurpose cement. After cleaning, antistatic spray could be applied to it.

Ok so I have found MDf sheets covered with melamine. I guess that would work.

if they are electrostatic, then they will attract dust, dust will stick on them and won’t be free flying in the cabinet, that’s not bad as well (if I understand it correctly) I have also antistatic spray for TVs, I can use that.

Let me do some cost calculation vs Marrutt RF35 which does not seem bad at all. There are other choices as well, however not quite sure if hanging is a better choice than drying on the reels (I have plenty)

IKEA?

But it is short to hand a 35mm roll

A 35mm roll can be cut in half. But I'd be more wary of the metal being likely to rust in a darkroom environment, given the very cheap nature of most Ikea stuff.

You don't say how you are drying your film.

cliveh said:

You don't say how you are drying your film.

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I hang them, using Paterson clips, a heavy one at the bottom.

For some time, I’ve hanged them in my basement, and did not have an issue. Recently it has started to have dust, so thought I should either build a cabinet or buy a dryer. Sadly my basement ceiling is low so I can’t buy 2m Marrutt drying cabinets. I was thinking a box shaped dryers, I presume, you dry the films while they are on the reels.

Currently my options are either this Ikea cabinet or made of Melamine coated sheets.

DREW WILEY said:

A 35mm roll can be cut in half. But I'd be more wary of the metal being likely to rust in a darkroom environment, given the very cheap nature of most Ikea stuff.

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If I cut in half, how would I put heavy clips to the cut ends? Probably I can use sprocket holes?

Fatih Ayoglu said:

If I cut in half, how would I put heavy clips to the cut ends? Probably I can use sprocket holes?

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Or bulk load shorter rolls

Yeah, sprocket holes. I just used a pair of needle-nosed pliers to make little hooks out of brass wire.

I no longer use my old drying cabinet, and just hang film from the line above my darkroom sink. It's clean enough in there.

Bathroom, across the tub on a length of clothesline or heavy string/light rope. Close the shower curtain while drying. (Ignore the spacing issue with the film, that's why I took the picture.)

MattKing said:

Or bulk load shorter rolls

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Matt, let me solve one problem before I create a new one

The length of a 135-36 roll is one of my motivations for bulk loading 25 exposure rolls - yes, 25.

Let me stir the pot for a while!
I'm fortunate enough to have a permanent darkroom where the wooden floor was painted with a durable paint and the walls painted about 18% grey.
I then added , gasp, a large section of nylon carpet!
I never have issues with dust.
My belief is that the nylon carpet attracts dust particles
I vacuum the carpet regularly .

Vacuum with what? An ordinary vacuum cleaner spreads fine dust. I myself went through that initiation ritual. My first enlarger was set up in a carpeted bedroom, with processing in the adjacent bathroom. Where there's a will, there's a way. But once I was able to build a real darkroom space, even the wall paint was chosen for its anti-static properties. I began wearing a 100% dacron cleanroom smock for fussy film tasks, got an industrial quality air cleaner, triple-filtered compressor air, etc. And most important, had to teach my ever-curious cats where their boundaries lie... well, they ended up teaching me that I have to lock the door every single time, or they will come in. Ever look at cat hair under the microscope? Each little segment has barbs to it; no wonder it clings to things and makes noses itch! Darkroom public enemy no.1.

DREW WILEY said:

had to teach my ever-curious cats where their boundaries lie... well, they ended up teaching me that I have to lock the door every single time, or they will come in.

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I'm afraid there's no other way. Tell me about it...we have two kittens right now and unless I only ever want to contact print paws, I'll have to keep the darkroom door shut, always.