Clarification when shooting non box ISO speed

redbandit · Jan 7, 2023

There is a thread about using a film at half box speed and developing at full box iso, in that case shooting a 400 iso portra at 200 iso on camera meter dial, and being fine when developed at 400 iso.

If you go to digital truth and look at the massive development chart(TM), youll see alot of "HP5 400 shot at 200, development times" that are NOT the development time for the same film shot at 400 iso in that developer.

What method is actually correct to follow for black and white film?

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 7, 2023

What's correct for me and HP5 is EI 250 at my time that I worked out years ago, for the various developers that I use. Sometimes though, I rate HP5 at 800, and develop longer than box speed. You have to work out what is correct for you.

ic-racer · Jan 7, 2023

redbandit said:
What method is actually correct to follow for black and white film?

I think it is "Correct" to say ISO and Dev. Times are both just recommendations from the manufacturer.

pentaxuser · Jan 7, 2023

redbandit said:
There is a thread about using a film at half box speed and developing at full box iso, in that case shooting a 400 iso portra at 200 iso on camera meter dial, and being fine when developed at 400 iso.

If you go to digital truth and look at the massive development chart(TM), youll see alot of "HP5 400 shot at 200, development times" that are NOT the development time for the same film shot at 400 iso in that developer.

What method is actually correct to follow for black and white film?

If you want to determine your own personal EI for a film with your own personal development time which together give you the negatives you want then there are books and videos covering this

If you are more of a visual demonstration person rather than someone who prefers to consult a textbook then might I suggest 2 videos by a presenter called John Finch on his YouTube site called Pictorial Planet

In fact I'll do better than that. Here are the two videos. They are worth watching

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jan 7, 2023

Most of those Massive Development Table times are simply a reflection of what the source of that information prefers to do - metering technique, agitation, preferred negative contrast and density.
Some of those times reflect manufacturer's tests, and some of those are well documented.

Pieter12 · Jan 7, 2023

The charts are based on the ISO you've shot the film at. So if you shoot HP5+ at 200, you develop for 200. Examine the resulting negatives, see if you're pleased with how they look and print. If you shoot at 200 and process for 400, you essentially overexposed the film by a stop, it will show, and you will probably be able to print the negatives. You might like that look, too. More shadow detail, just have to put some effort into recovering the highlights under the enlarger.

Paul Howell · Jan 7, 2023

Manufactures recommend testing to determine what ISO and development best suits your camera, meter, and personal preferences. Depending on the camera and meter my personal ISO for most films are all over the map. My cameras with mechanical shutters and aging TTL meters, ISO varies up to 3 stops. My MF bodies, although all have mechanical shutters shoot pretty much at box speed with a calibrated hand held meter. My newer bodies with electronic shutters in matrix mode shoot pretty much at box speed. Tmax seems to work well for at box speed, while Foma, 400 at 320 to 200, Foma 100, 50 to 25. Kentmeyer is pretty good at box speed. You just need to test to see what works for you.

Bill Burk · Jan 7, 2023

Deviating from ISO speed is done along two whole different ways of thinking.

Push/Pull.
Personal Exposure Index.

You always want to get the best results, but you go about it in different ways.

A plain example of Push/Pull is pushing Tri-X to 3200. When you develop according to Massive Dev chart times for that combination, you can get graphically satisfying pictures in the harshest conditions.

But you wouldn’t judge the pictures excellent (all other things being equal) compared to the same picture taken with the right exposure and development. What makes a push special is that you get pictures that are otherwise impossible so there is nothing to compare it to.

The classic example of Personal Exposure Index is the Zone System. People who test often conclude their personal EI should be half the ISO speed. We can talk all day about it but skip all that for now.

The negative contrast does not change when film gets more exposure, if you develop it the same. But you could get away with developing for less time since you aren’t risking shadow detail (because you gave more exposure than the shadows needed, you will get that detail). That would decrease the negative contrast and you would need to increase the contrast when you print to make up for it. But in both cases you will get an excellent print.

Just if you give greater exposure and develop the same as ISO, you can use the normal contrast when you print.

redbandit · Jan 7, 2023

Bill Burk said:
Deviating from ISO speed is done along two whole different ways of thinking.

Push/Pull.
Personal Exposure Index.

You always want to get the best results, but you go about it in different ways.

A plain example of Push/Pull is pushing Tri-X to 3200. When you develop according to Massive Dev chart times for that combination, you can get graphically satisfying pictures in the harshest conditions.

But you wouldn’t judge the pictures excellent (all other things being equal) compared to the same picture taken with the right exposure and development. What makes a push special is that you get pictures that are otherwise impossible so there is nothing to compare it to.

The classic example of Personal Exposure Index is the Zone System. People who test often conclude their personal EI should be half the ISO speed. We can talk all day about it but skip all that for now.

The negative contrast does not change when film gets more exposure, if you develop it the same. But you could get away with developing for less time since you aren’t risking shadow detail (because you gave more exposure than the shadows needed, you will get that detail). That would decrease the negative contrast and you would need to increase the contrast when you print to make up for it. But in both cases you will get an excellent print.

Just if you give greater exposure and develop the same as ISO, you can use the normal contrast when you print.

I am a wee bit leery of push/pull. Tried that with HP5+, just ran the camera meter at 2x the box speed, and it was like looking at cheap photo copies of photo copies of an old news paper photo.

If i understand it correctly, IF i shoot a film at 50% of box listed ISO, all i need to do is develop at the normal times listed for the BOX SPEED, and merely do my standard test strip to determine proper contrast settings.

If i shoot at half box speed, i can develop the film for LESS time, but WILL change the contrast level of the film, but preserve shadow detail. BUT will need to go to a higher contrast level when printing.

GregY · Jan 7, 2023

redbandit said:
I am a wee bit leery of push/pull. Tried that with HP5+, just ran the camera meter at 2x the box speed, and it was like looking at cheap photo copies of photo copies of an old news paper photo.

If i understand it correctly, IF i shoot a film at 50% of box listed ISO, all i need to do is develop at the normal times listed for the BOX SPEED, and merely do my standard test strip to determine proper contrast settings.

If i shoot at half box speed, i can develop the film for LESS time, but WILL change the contrast level of the film, but preserve shadow detail. BUT will need to go to a higher contrast level when printing.

it also depends on the quality of light (strong, harsh, overcast & dull?), & the dynamic range within the photo......those elements help you choose how much exposure & how much development you give your film.

Pieter12 · Jan 7, 2023

redbandit said:
I am a wee bit leery of push/pull. Tried that with HP5+, just ran the camera meter at 2x the box speed, and it was like looking at cheap photo copies of photo copies of an old news paper photo.

If i understand it correctly, IF i shoot a film at 50% of box listed ISO, all i need to do is develop at the normal times listed for the BOX SPEED, and merely do my standard test strip to determine proper contrast settings.

If i shoot at half box speed, i can develop the film for LESS time, but WILL change the contrast level of the film, but preserve shadow detail. BUT will need to go to a higher contrast level when printing.

Did you process for the speed you shot at? Or something more arbitrary?

redbandit · Jan 7, 2023

Pieter12 said:
Did you process for the speed you shot at? Or something more arbitrary?

when i tried the HP5+, i used the massive dev chart data for 800 iso development. it matched what i had seen online with various "articles". Things came out bad.

the little k mount vivitar camera i got last month has changed my outlook on camera work, it broke the drought as i now have something small enough to take to work. and not worth as much as my Ftb is. And the world of K mount lenses is quite interesting based on how long they made manual focus and manual aperture lenses for.

Bill Burk · Jan 8, 2023

redbandit said:
If i understand it correctly, IF i shoot a film at 50% of box listed ISO, all i need to do is develop at the normal times listed for the BOX SPEED, and merely do my standard test strip to determine proper contrast settings.

If i shoot at half box speed, i can develop the film for LESS time, but WILL change the contrast level of the film, but preserve shadow detail. BUT will need to go to a higher contrast level when printing.

That’s exactly what I meant.

I won’t try to pull a fast one on you. There is a slight degradation in image quality when you shoot half box speed and develop at box speed. Grain increases and resolution decreases. The amount of degradation is slight but measurable. But you lose a lot of resolution when you handhold the camera instead of using a tripod.

I think it’s easier to work with that negative in the darkroom, because I can dodge a shadow to reveal texture that would be black in a straight print, for example bark on a tree or water under a rock.

redbandit · Jan 8, 2023

Bill Burk said:
That’s exactly what I meant.

I won’t try to pull a fast one on you. There is a slight degradation in image quality when you shoot half box speed and develop at box speed. Grain increases and resolution decreases. The amount of degradation is slight but measurable. But you lose a lot of resolution when you handhold the camera instead of using a tripod.

I think it’s easier to work with that negative in the darkroom, because I can dodge a shadow to reveal texture that would be black in a straight print, for example bark on a tree or water under a rock.

most of my work is going to be out in the woods, or photographing flowers outside.

SO heavy shade or bright light. How does THAT compute into shooting at non box speeds?

Clarification when shooting non box ISO speed

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Clarification when shooting non box ISO speed

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