CLA or buy more (potentially) faulty second hand goods?

hoffy · May 1, 2014

OK, here's the scenario.

I got a quote to have a CLA done on 2 separate lenses for my Bronica. The quote came in at nearly double the purchase price of a EX grade replacement from KEH. Needless to say, I was possibly a little shocked. The CLA comprised completely of a strip down, regrease and rebuild. No new parts are required.

But, the more I think about it, at least if I get a CLA done on these lenses, I SHOULD know what I have and hopefully I have lenses that will be good for another 20 years. If I buy from KEH, what are the chances that in 12 months time, I am back to square one.

So, what would you do? Expensive CLA, or the Russian Roulette that is buying more second hand gear.

Cheers

Tom1956 · May 1, 2014

I only buy broken cameras. If you pick 'em right, you can snag them pretty sweet. I can fix anything with one eye tied behind my back.

omaha · May 1, 2014

Under the same circumstances as you, I just ordered a "new" EX+ rated RB67 body from KEH.

FWIW...

snapguy · May 1, 2014

UG

I bought an UG grade lens for my Crown Graphic 4x5 camera from KEH and the lens was ... beautiful. There was a tiny bit of junk on the two tiny electronic flash connectors, most of which I scraped off with a thumbnail. If the CLA is double the price of the replacement lens, well you are one lens ahead of the game by buying the replacement. You could buy two and be at tghe same place as if you bought the CLA.

ozphoto · May 1, 2014

I've bought an UG lens from KEH also - and it's going great guns 5 years later (still trying to decipher why a bit of paint wear makes it "UG"??)

If I were in the same boat, I'd forego the CLA and grab the EX grade equipment from KEH; if it goes south in 12 mths (I think *very* unlikely), you'll probably be able to grab yet another bargain, so you'll still be ahead.

trythis · May 1, 2014

I'll take those broken lenses off your hands!

You have to decide what kinda camera junkie you are.

Can you do good CLA on your own?

If not, just sell it as parts and buy from KEH.

Tom1956 · May 2, 2014

trythis said:
I'll take those broken lenses off your hands!

You have to decide what kinda camera junkie you are.

Can you do good CLA on your own?

If not, just sell it as parts and buy from KEH.

My cameras are as perfect as my model airplanes. And I don't believe in "parting out" things . That's sacrilege.

Peltigera · May 2, 2014

Of my 40-odd second hand cameras none have been CLAd and none will be. Exactly one does not work well (an Exakta Varex II) and all (except the Varex II) get used on a regular basis.

Xmas · May 2, 2014

I bought an ugly IIIc body (Leica) in 75 missing bits baseplate and spool.
Found the bits and a lens and it is still ok today.
The M's that had regular factory service have not been as reliable.
If it is not broke don't fix it.

gone · May 2, 2014

I'd buy the lenses from KEH. Never understood the prices people charge for camera repairs, because nearly always you can get several of the same item in Exc condition for less money. You get a warranty from KEH too. I wouldn't assume that a CLA'd lens would last 20 more years either. It's already an old lens. They don't last forever. I made a living repairing high end sports cars and working as a machinist for decades, and can tell you that just because something old is repaired doesn't mean it will work forever. Metals age just like people. They fatigue and become brittle, grease wears out or migrates, mechanical parts wear even immersed in oil, etc. It only takes one teeny tiny fungus spore to get inside a lens, even a new one, and wreck havoc.

Once you get good lenses they require regular care too. Keep them clean, avoid sudden and large temperature and humidity changes if possible, regularly check them for haze or fungus, and store them properly when not in use.

Regular Rod · May 2, 2014

There is a market out here for some learning system to let us learn how to do all this work ourselves. Imagine if Brainrush.com (worth a look anyway) had in the library how to strip, clean and recondition shutters, lenses, rangefinders, film counters et al...

The high prices now charged are simply high through the law of supply and demand...

We could reduce that demand if we knew how fix our equipment.

RR

film_man · May 2, 2014

If you buy another used lens then apart from possibly getting a dud you will eventually still need to service it as these thing will not actually last forever without service. So might as well get it serviced and be done with.

I service all my MF equipment that I like to keep, the exception being my late Hasselblad 500ELX which after servicing it twice for the same fault in 2 years it broke down again with the same issue so I sold it for parts as it showed that the fault is probably not really fixable.

fotch · May 2, 2014

momus said:
...............Metals age just like people. They fatigue and become brittle, grease wears out or migrates, mechanical parts wear even immersed in oil, etc. .................

"Metals age just like people?" Don't think so. While metals that are stressed may become brittle, if not used or lightly used, then the metal should be just fine. I restore antique clocks, have trained to do this, parts that move will have wear, they don't necessarily become fatigue or brittle. JMHO

film_man · May 2, 2014

Regular Rod said:
There is a market out here for some learning system to let us learn how to do all this work ourselves. Imagine if Brainrush.com (worth a look anyway) had in the library how to strip, clean and recondition shutters, lenses, rangefinders, film counters et al...

The high prices now charged are simply high through the law of supply and demand...

We could reduce that demand if we knew how fix our equipment.

RR

Unless you want to do this for fun it is a false economy. You will need tools and spare parts and sourcing these costs money. The time to learn and do the service also costs money. Personally I'd rather pay someone £150 to fix what needs fixing instead of doing it myself (and possibly ruining a part or two the first couple of times I try it). Plus it keeps someone who knows what they do in business and supports the general film camera community.

benjiboy · May 2, 2014

I'm not a prolific camera buyer I've only bought three cameras in the last 25 years and I voted for C.L.A. every time, however if I was like many people who many members of this and other forums who are serial camera buyers, some of whom own 50 + cameras I wouldn't be able to afford to. I prefer to spend my money to keep the cameras I use in good working order rather than fill my house with faulty ones, but you pay your money and you take your choice it's your prerogative if you want to fill your home with faulty cameras.

Jerevan · May 2, 2014

If it is really stripped down, cleaned, regreased and collimated, I prefer to send it in. Anything that I seriously use (at the moment it is 3 cameras with 6 lenses between them) will get this treatment somewhere along the road. I pay the fees for this because I prefer knowing things work as intended. It's nice to know that the Nikon really delivers even in minus 15 degrees Celsius with slide film. Nowadays I factor in a serious CLA in the price whenever I am thinking of buying something, which means that it is less likely that I buy stuff.

BrianShaw · May 2, 2014

hoffy said:
...
So, what would you do? Expensive CLA.

this.

I value reliability and buying more old stuff just adds risk to the crap shoot.

Pioneer · May 2, 2014

I vote the other way. I believe in having things serviced rather than playing ebay roulette in the hopes I get something better. Of course, there are occasions when it does not make sense. A recent ebay purchase turned out to be completely different than described, so I returned it.

As for KEH, I buy from them frequently. Not only is their grading system very conservative, they also have a generous return policy and a decent repair facility. I recently picked up a nice Leica IIIa with a misadjusted rangefinder. I returned it for repair and received it back with the rangefinder adjusted at no extra cost.

E. von Hoegh · May 2, 2014

"CLA every time"
Buying a decades old piece of equipment without bearing in mind the need for what is basic maintenance is just not realistic, and buying another when the first stops working due to lack of maintenance is (to be charitable) just foolish.
Also foolish is the belief that watching a youtube tutorial or reading a book qualifies one to repair a camera on the kitchen table.
It's certainly possible to educate one's self in this area, but be prepared for a substantial monetary investment in first class tools (price a set of Bergeon watchmakers screwdrivers - and yes, you need them - DuMont tweezers, etc) and an even more substantial investment of time and effort to acquire the skill to use the tools. This isn't plug-n-play folks.

E. von Hoegh · May 2, 2014

fotch said:
"Metals age just like people?" Don't think so. While metals that are stressed may become brittle, if not used or lightly used, then the metal should be just fine. I restore antique clocks, have trained to do this, parts that move will have wear, they don't necessarily become fatigue or brittle. JMHO

If you had experience with older clocks (or antique automobile radiator and headlight shells), you would have learned that certain types of brass become brittle with age -just age, nothing else- to the extent that they are useless. Likewise, brass and steel bimetallic balances often change their characteristics with time, very few older watches have anything like accurate temperature compensation for this (and other) reasons.

Tom1956 · May 2, 2014

Lacking the fancy screwdrivers, I use the el-cheapos and file the tip to fit the screw using my 50mm lens turned-around-backwards as a magnifier. I HATE scratched-up and chewed up screws. There's just no excuse for that. And I also know when to back out of a project and button it up before I've made a mess of it for lack of tools, parts, and/or knowledge. To my credit, I pull off a very high percentage of repairs in top-notch fashion.
I know myself--if I buy the nice equipment, I'll stop repairing and that stuff will become another big expenditure I blew my money on to collect dust and cause more house-clutter.
As for watches, I have absolutely no beezwax tinkering with those. Shutters are my high water mark.

E. von Hoegh · May 2, 2014

Tom1956 said:
Lacking the fancy screwdrivers, I use the el-cheapos and file the tip to fit the screw using my 50mm lens turned-around-backwards as a magnifier. I HATE scratched-up and chewed up screws. There's just no excuse for that. And I also know when to back out of a project and button it up before I've made a mess of it for lack of tools, parts, and/or knowledge. To my credit, I pull off a very high percentage of repairs in top-notch fashion.
I know myself--if I buy the nice equipment, I'll stop repairing and that stuff will become another big expenditure I blew my money on to collect dust and cause more house-clutter.
As for watches, I have absolutely no beezwax tinkering with those. Shutters are my high water mark.

There are a couple problems with this. Most do not know what a 'properly fitting' screwdriver looks like.(Witness the number of damaged screws). Cheap usually means soft; a soft screwdriver blade can deform and in turn deform the screwhead. While a hardened blade will break, it hardly ever damages the screwhead when it does so. Lastly, those oval #6 needle files to give the blade the proper hollow form are far more expensive than most tinkerers are prepared to spend.

Tom1956 · May 2, 2014

Those el-cheapos ARE hardened, and they break all the time. So you have to keep buying them--they don't last long before you're back to chewing up screws again. Also the little short skinny handles don't give any leverage. They're junk. They'll turn a toughcase screw into a near impossible nightmare. Maybe some day I'll break down and buy some good tools. Maybe a couple years before I was going to die of old age anyway. I've already made a mess for my executor to have to sort through for my estate sale already.

kb3lms · May 2, 2014

I'd have no problem buying from KEH at any time. While I have never bought UG graded (although I have been tempted) I regularly buy BGN and haven't gotten anything that I was disappointed with. From what you guys say here I may try UG next time and see for something inexpensive.

As another thought, you could do both. Purchase yourself an extra lens now, and have the CLA done at your leisure. If you decide that two lenses is too many you can always sell one later. None of this stuff is getting any newer! I have decided that I like to have have backup gear so I have at least two of almost everything that i really like. Besides, I have "ruined" two unusable lenses and a Pentax trying to repair them so I have given up on self-repairs.

John Koehrer · May 2, 2014

momus said:
I'd buy the lenses from KEH. Never understood the prices people charge for camera repairs, because nearly always you can get several of the same item in Exc condition for less money.

I'd guess people charge a bit for camera repairs could be rationalized pretty easily.

overhead, like initial investment for equipment and tools. Rent, utilities, business license, insurance, telephone, advertising, parts inventory. Oh! did I mention taxes? Do you need to eat and have housing?

You don't make money doing the repairs, you make it by having people working for you. Many small shops pay by commission on the order of 60/40% with the employer getting the 60. Manufacturers by the week or hour.
Assuming a CLA costs $75.00. Mr. workerbee gets $40.00 pretax. Paperwork, looking up the part numbers if needed, whatever piddly shit comes up. Maybe a piece comes back for warrantee work. The boss doesn't pick that up, workerbee has to use their time to make it good. That's time out of their production = no money coming in for that time. (

I've seen posts claim that technician X completely tore a camera down, cleaned & oiled all the pivots, clean and grease all the latch points, connectors on the circuit board, adjust speeds and meter all in two hours.
Oh yeah, the camera works better than new too.

I find it necessary to call a great big BS!

CLA or buy more (potentially) faulty second hand goods?

What would you do - CLA or buy more second hand gear.

CLA every time

KEH for some more cheap goodies

Learn how to fix them yourself

I plead the 5th

hoffy

Tom1956

omaha

snapguy

ozphoto

trythis

Tom1956

Peltigera

Xmas

gone

Regular Rod

film_man

fotch

film_man

benjiboy

Jerevan

BrianShaw

Pioneer

E. von Hoegh

E. von Hoegh

Tom1956

E. von Hoegh

Tom1956

kb3lms

John Koehrer

CLA or buy more (potentially) faulty second hand goods?

What would you do - CLA or buy more second hand gear.

CLA every time

KEH for some more cheap goodies

Learn how to fix them yourself

I plead the 5th

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