Cirkut film in 2018

[Nate C]

Hi all. Been curious about Cirkut for a while. Near as I can tell only film available now for Cirkut is Ilford bulk order (during ULF ordering period) in 8” and 10” and if I understand it correctly if not enough people order your order will not be fulfilled.
Now my newbie questions. Does that film even work? I realize you would have to hand roll off your own with your own stash of spools and maybe hand made backing paper etc. But is the film the right thickness etc? This is mostly academic as I don’t own a Cirkut. Does this mean Cirkut #5 and Cirkut #6 models are out of luck now that Aerial film is no longer made?
Btw I just checked in with a professional panorama vendor that used to use Cirkuts down in front of the Capitol, and they quit using Cirkuts in 2000 and just LAST MONTH threw out all their film (I interpreted as 18 year old expired film) and it apparently took a whole truck to do so. I wish I had contacted them a month ago, I would have shown up with at least a hand truck.... oh well.
And if anyone in the DC/Balt area has a Cirkut who is going to shoot anything, let me know and I can tag along carry cases and try not to be too annoying.

 

[choiliefan]

I'm surprised to hear that film was thrown out especially since a similar camera was used to shoot the official pic of the 2016 Dem's convention:

https://petapixel.com/2016/07/28/official-2016-dnc-photo-shot-100-year-old-camera/

 

[Nate C]

Different vendor. That guy does both DNC and RNC conventions and did the inauguration, and has apparently been doing it for years. I assume he is hoarding his film. Panoramicvisions.com I think is the company. They had a dustup when they got the inauguration date wrong.

 

[frobozz]

That was pretty dumb to throw away the film, when you can still get pretty good money for it, even expired. I bought a whole pile of color film from the Goldbeck folks, who probably still have a bunch left.

9.5" aerial film is another potential source, in both color an B&W.

Rolling my own from aerial and Ilford ULF film is still a theoretical exercise for me, as there have been just too many other projects in front of it. I bought an aerial film cleaning machine (hand-cranked) with the intention of turning it into a spool-loader, but modifying it to handle Cirkut spools on the takeup side requires more machining than I was set up for. I now have a drill press so that project will move ahead once it pops to the top of the queue again. Also, too, the project where I'm building a darkroom.

Duncan

 

[Nate C]

My understanding is KODAK stopped making aerial film in 2014. Not sure if that means they may still have stock by now or not.
I was a little surprised they tossed the film, but they did sit on it for 18 years and not use it. Unless I misunderstood and they were talking about their negatives. Which would be slightly weird also, but based on the volume of what they chucked it might have been an economic decision no matter what it was, based on space and things paying their way.

 

[frobozz]

Those big panoramic guys were always really paranoid; didn't want to sell old cameras lest someone go into business competing with them, etc. So I could see just sitting on the film for the first 10 years or so. But it was really dumb not to at least do a quick look around ebay or something to realize they could get pretty decent money for something they were just going to throw away.

Kodak may have stopped making aerial film but there's still a bunch out there. Same for Agfa (who I think is still actually making it?)

I got a roll from the Ilford ULF run a couple of years ago, it's not completely impossible. The even-multiples restriction does mean even if they run it, your order might not get filled. If, I mean WHEN I get my rolling contraption set up I'll probably try to hoard some more of it from the next ULF run, so there will be some demand for it from me, at least!

Duncan

 

[frobozz]

Oh, and Brad LaPayne down in Champaign Illinois has stopped using Cirkuts but still has a ton of spools with backing paper that he hung on to. He sells them on ebay from time to time or you could just contact him directly and make a deal to buy some. You really only need enough to cover however many rolls you're going to have prepped to shoot/waiting to develop at any given time, then they'll become your own spares and can be used again (and again and again).

Duncan

 

[Nate C]

Well I imagine I would need to aquire a camera first. A guy can dream. I just didn’t want to find a camera only to discover no film anywhere is available. It sounds difficult but not impossible. For example I didn’t know Agfa was possibly still making aerial film.

 

[c.d.ewen]

Well I imagine I would need to aquire a camera first.

Caution! Every Cirkut owner I know has more than one Cirkut. I can't remember if I have 3, or is it 4?

Charley

 

[frobozz]

Caution! Every Cirkut owner I know has more than one Cirkut. I can't remember if I have 3, or is it 4?

Charley

Exactly my boat. I think it's 3 running cameras and one parts camera that I have Frankensteinian plans for. 3 turntables but only 2 sets of legs maybe?

My theory was that at this point film is the *much* harder item to acquire. The number of cameras is not going down, but the number of people willing to care and feed them is... while every time someone makes a Cirkut image, there is that much less film in existence. So I started acquiring the film long before I had a camera. Then once I found one camera, they started coming out of the woodwork.

Duncan

 

[Nate C]

Ha! Well, all that (legitimate) hoarding explains why they still seem so bloody expensive. I’ll just have to lurk at estate sales in my area perhaps... I hope in those collections of 3-4 plus bodies people have they try and take a shot or two every couple of years .

 

[frobozz]

I've only done tests on 220 film so far. Still putting together the capability to load Cirkut spools and develop 10" film. Once I have the capability to run some real tests with 9.5/10" film I'll probably sell a complete spare 10" Cirkut set. I just need to make sure I have a good working one, and that I can honestly call the one I sell a tested good working one.

Duncan

 

[Nate C]

Once you figure out how to wind the film share the photos!
On a more technical note, does anyone know how/if the camera accommodates the synchro of the panning speed with film transport? The diameter of the take up spindle effectively is constantly changing as more film is wound on it, so even at a constant internal winding speed it would pull more and more film per revolution I would imagine, which I suspect would be disasterous for final product. And if there is an allowance for this, one would have to be careful not to use film with a different thickness than it was spec’ed for.

 

[Nate C]

For example, a motion picture camera doesn’t have this problem as drive mechanism uses sprocket holes for driving at constant rate and take up just has a clutch to take up the slack, whatever that is. But it’s more complicated with no sprockets.

 

[frobozz]

Somewhere on here is a post by me, probably unintelligible if you're not inside my brain, explaining how the Cirkut concept is all an amazingly effective crude fake of what "should" be done to make these sorts of pictures (i.e. why it doesn't matter that the camera is not actually rotating on the nodal point, etc.) I don't think I explained it there, but the quick answer to your question is that the takeup drum is a large enough circumference to begin with that the increase with additional wraps of film, especially since you don't get more than a few wraps in one picture, don't make that much of a difference. Especially since the whole thing is a fast and loose approximation of the ideal anyway.

But yes, if you were to take a more-than-360-degree photo with your Cirkut, and then overlay the portions of the negative that were of the same parts of the scene, they would not line up perfectly; one would be very slightly elongated compared to the other. But not enough that any people, say, would look weird or unrecognizable as the people they are, which is all the Cirkut was trying to accomplish.

Duncan

 

[Nate C]

Ah that makes sense. Simple clockwork then. I think I had read your previous post but it didn’t expressly explain this particular bit. It makes sense though, when doing digital 360 and 360 stereo the more slices you stictch the more the software can hide stitching errors. The Cirkut is essentIally an analog version continuously stitching the whole time, allowing to hide lots of stuff.
Now of course I have thoughts of wildily optimistic ideas of making a Cirkut knockoff from scratch....

 

[choiliefan]

A seemingly complete #5 camera just sold on the bay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1905-NO-5-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Pretty good pictures show the geared tripod head, assortment of gears, layout of the slit and the drums, etc.

 

[Nate C]

Yeah I saw that. I imagine though that a #8 or #10 might be more useful if you plan on actually getting film for it. Cutting down 8” or 9.5” to get 5” would be annoying and difficult I imagine. But for historical collecting purposes I imagine it’s more desirable, as I think #5 came first?

 

[frobozz]

I have a Widelux. In addition to the even-scarcer film, 5" just didn't seem like a big enough jump in size over that to be worth all the hassle. 10 inches? THAT is worth the hassle, in my opinion!

Duncan

 

[choiliefan]

Lots of folks cut down x-ray film or do paper negatives.
Not saying it's being done in a cirkut camera though.

 

[jamie young]

Nate the Ilford special order cirkut film is the correct thickness. It should be the same thickness as 120 film, but you could use 35mm thickness film too. any thicker and the camera won't run well. I've used the ilford and it's fine.I doubt paper negs would work and you would also have an exposure issue with stock unmotorized cameras, paper being too slow. If you get into it do a size that you can get film for. 8" film is a good size to start, and will fit into a #8 or a #10. It's true it's addicting. I have 8 cameras- one of each size, and a couple of extras. I'm still mostly using hoarded film from when I got into it

 

[rchalfan]

Once you figure out how to wind the film share the photos!
On a more technical note, does anyone know how/if the camera accommodates the synchro of the panning speed with film transport? The diameter of the take up spindle effectively is constantly changing as more film is wound on it, so even at a constant internal winding speed it would pull more and more film per revolution I would imagine, which I suspect would be disasterous for final product. And if there is an allowance for this, one would have to be careful not to use film with a different thickness than it was spec’ed for.

 

[rchalfan]

That is not an issue with Cirkut cameras. There is no “take-up spool”. The film is attached to (actuslly clamped onto) to a large drum that is several inches in diameter. The drum is large enough that there is very little film speed difference as film is wound on the drum. If I recall the #16 camera’s drum is about 4” in diameter so about 12 1/2” of film are wound each drum rotation. Even shooting 10’ (the longest pictures I have taken) is no problem. So the ONLY concern is getting the correct gear in the camera to match the focal length and focus distance of the lens.

If you darkroom (or oversized changing bag) load and unload the film you don’t need paper. That is the only way I have ever used #10 or #16 cameras.

 

[fabulousrice]

That is not an issue with Cirkut cameras. There is no “take-up spool”. The film is attached to (actuslly clamped onto) to a large drum that is several inches in diameter. The drum is large enough that there is very little film speed difference as film is wound on the drum. If I recall the #16 camera’s drum is about 4” in diameter so about 12 1/2” of film are wound each drum rotation. Even shooting 10’ (the longest pictures I have taken) is no problem. So the ONLY concern is getting the correct gear in the camera to match the focal length and focus distance of the lens.

If you darkroom (or oversized changing bag) load and unload the film you don’t need paper. That is the only way I have ever used #10 or #16 cameras.

Do you have any pictures of that? Of the inside, I mean. I'd love to see what it looks like on the inside.