Cirkut # 10 motor disassembly, with pictures

[frobozz]

Bought a single bottle of this at the local Harley shop today:

Dead Link Removed

Cleaned all the oil off and rebuilt the motor using that. Of course NOW it's 39 degrees out! So it's not really a fair test. But I left it outside for half an hour and then ran it and it flew without a hitch. I'll see what happens next time it's really cold out, but for now I think I'll just try another test with actual film when it's in the 30's tomorrow, woohoo!

Duncan

 

[frobozz]

Updates:

I got a nice email from Ron Klein, apologizing for not having chimed in here, but he's dealing with stuff that's consuming all his time. He'll be along eventually.

On Sunday I shot a test on Plus-X 220 (exp date 1997) using my adapter, when it was 34 degrees out. The camera didn't sound like it was running fast enough, so I gave it the ol' helping hand. So I haven't found the magic cold-weather rebuild solution yet, but maybe Ron will have something. I also received my order from McMaster-Carr, of a bunch of thin small teflon washers, in case I go down that path (I'm not sure there's enough room in there for them.)

Oh, I haven't had a spare hour since then to actually develop the film and yes it's killing me! It's loaded on the spiral and sitting in the tank, mocking me every time I rush by doing something else...

Duncan

 

[Len Robertson]

Jamie - I'm days late in thanking you for posting the fan motor pictures. Anyway, Thanks! Some day I'll get up nerve enough to tear into the motor on my#10 Century fan camera. I believe the motor runs, but it doesn't seem good to run it without a clean and lube. I really need to put my time and energy toward getting my governor #10 back in operating condition first.

Duncan - It is great you heard back from Ron. It will be interesting to see what he has to say regarding cold weather Cirkut operation.

Len

 

[frobozz]

OK, developed my test roll. I have no good way to scan it all, even in strips for reassembly, but here is the first 10 inches or so of it:

Overexposed at first until I was pushing the camera hard enough. A little band-y at first because I still wasn't pushing hard enough. A little crescent-mark-kinked at the beginning because I've never loaded 220 on a reel before and it's different enough from 120 that I was having problems. But by golly that's an image from my 86 year old camera! The full thing is a little over 3 feet long and is a sight to behold, even with the odd (random) framing being only a portion of the scene.

Duncan

 

[jamie young]

Looking good! How are you planning on developing the regular cirkut film?

 

[frobozz]

Looking good! How are you planning on developing the regular cirkut film?

Well there's this whole thing about me doing things when I'm able, not when they make the most sense in a logical order... so once I do actually build the darkroom, the answer to that question will be more obvious! So many more important home rebuild projects in line ahead of it, sigh... It's possible I'll get the ATL-3 plumbed in and running before that time, and Mark Crabtree says he can show me how to build a reel and loader to go in a Jobo tank (which is how I'll do color film developing eventually anyway.) But if I get the urge before all that, there's always the big-buckets-o'soup method, and I have a pretty big sink in a half bath that could be made dark at night so I might just be able to do it that way.

Duncan

 

[c.d.ewen]

I dimly recall Mark telling me how he'd shoot at lunchtime at a conference, find a dark bathroom sink, develop quick (Acufine, AIR), and have a demo print ready to go when the conference broke up. He's probably got some good stories.

I used to put the developer in a small plastic tub, then stand over it with one end of the roll in each hand, slowly dropping one arm while raising the other, all the while keeping the film under the developer. Not as difficult as it sounds, if your times are short. I switched to submerging the roll in the tub, taking the outside end and rolling it up while the rest of the roll unwound. I was very pleased with this method, until the last roll I did this past Summer. I got a heck of a lot of scratches on the film somehow. I don't know where they came from, as I always wear nitrile gloves.

Having a CNC mill with a rotary table, I've meant (for years) to groove up a couple of pieces of nylon and fit them into a big Nikon SS cylinder. Maybe this'll be the year.

Charley

 

[frobozz]

I switched to submerging the roll in the tub, taking the outside end and rolling it up while the rest of the roll unwound. I was very pleased with this method, until the last roll I did this past Summer. I got a heck of a lot of scratches on the film somehow. I don't know where they came from, as I always wear nitrile gloves.

Is this just the equipment-free version of a rewind processor? Do you spool it back and forth multiple times, or just the once?

Duncan

 

[c.d.ewen]

Yep. Multiple times, generally once a minute. Same for stop and fix. For washing, I use a big basin.

Charley

 

[jamie young]

I've never tried the washtub method. Always used big custom trays. I have a couple of 20 foot long negs to process, so I am planning on trying a combination
by rolling back and forth on rollers in a 7 foot tray. Hopefully it will work

 

[Len Robertson]

The limited amount of Cirkut film I've developed has been by the second method Charley describes - feed the roll into a tub of developer from a dry hand to the wet hand in the developer. Once the film is completely submerged, then feed it from hand to hand, unrolling from one hand and re-rolling with the other. It works quite well, although I've never done any real test for evenness of development. When I get my banding problems solved, I will worry more about that. The tubs I used are made by Rubbermaid, possibly called "dishpans". The only problem is they are slightly flexible, so when pouring chemicals back out of them into a bottle, care must be taken. I've thought of making a floating lid for each tub. They have tapered sides, so the lid wouldn't be very tight fitting. Maybe an undersize lid with Cling Wrap to cover any gaps along the lid edge would work.

It would be nice to find straight sided ridged plastic boxes stout enough to hold the weight of 2 1/2 or 3 gallons of chems. I'm sure there is something appropriate out there in the world, but I've never spent any time looking. I think I tried an 8X10 Kodak hard rubber developing tank, but it isn't really big enough for the film and two hands to work in.

Duncan, when I find it I'll send an IAPP piece on hacking Paterson plastic developing reels to make a reel tall enough for Cirkut film. I tried this and it didn't work for me, so this may not be the great idea it sounds like. The problem I had was I couldn't get the film to load onto the reel. In hindsight I can think of two reasons for this. The idea is to use a length of plastic water pipe between the reel halves to space them apart. When I did this I have a feeling I wasn't careful enough, so the reel ends weren't perfectly parallel to each other. Also after I gave up on the Paterson reel idea I read on the forums of people having trouble loading 120 film onto regular Paterson reels. Several guys posted that older Paterson reels with a build up of chem residue or hard water deposits can be almost impossible to feed film onto. When I made my Paterson Cirkut reel, I probably picked the worst looking reels in my collection to hack up - with lots of deposits. There may be a way to clean older reels up, but I can't recall the method.

A side note - I think I was 55 years old before I learned to load a 120 stainless steel reel. And I had tried several times over the years (it really bothered me that I couldn't do it). One hot summer day I was trying to load a Paterson 120 reel and it just wouldn't load (probably an old reel with deposits, but I didn't know that at the time). I got so mad I grabbed a 120 SS reel and stood there until I got it loaded. I haven't used plastic reels since, although I know Paterson makes a good system. I also wonder about extending a SS reel to 8" or 9 1/2" or 10", but it would need to be a 220 reel to hold 6 foot of Cirkut film. It might be possible to do this with plastic pipe and JB Weld or other epoxy putty. Another project for when I retire.

The main reason I want to retry the Paterson reel idea is it seems it would work well for stand or semi-stand development. I haven't done any stand development yet with even 120 roll film, but I see really good results online from this technique. If it could be made to work it would beat standing over a plastic washtubs for 15 minutes or so.

Len

 

[frobozz]

A side note - I think I was 55 years old before I learned to load a 120 stainless steel reel. And I had tried several times over the years (it really bothered me that I couldn't do it). One hot summer day I was trying to load a Paterson 120 reel and it just wouldn't load (probably an old reel with deposits, but I didn't know that at the time). I got so mad I grabbed a 120 SS reel and stood there until I got it loaded. I haven't used plastic reels since, although I know Paterson makes a good system. I also wonder about extending a SS reel to 8" or 9 1/2" or 10", but it would need to be a 220 reel to hold 6 foot of Cirkut film. It might be possible to do this with plastic pipe and JB Weld or other epoxy putty. Another project for when I retire.

That was Mark's take on it - cut apart a SS reel and extend it with PVC pipe to the right width for whatever film you're using. A 35mm reel would get you a little over 5 feet of spiral, but I think he was talking about 70mm reels. I guess at that point the key becomes the loader. Paterson et al load from the outside in with ratchet action, but stainless reels load from the inside out, and I don't think any amount of practice is going to make you good enough to do that by hand!

I need to gather together all my weird reels and see what would be best for hacking up. I think I have Nikkor 70mm, I know I have Nikkor wide-tank 35mm and maybe 220. I have a smattering of long-roll spirals in various film sizes, but the best idea would be to make something that fits in a Jobo tank, so those may not be what I want to use. More projects to delay the eventual building of the darkroom ;-)

Duncan

 

[c.d.ewen]

One of the considerations I had about reel developing was the amount of developer that might be required. Using a 220 reel would require a full container, wouldn't it?

I chopped a high capacity 70 mm plastic reel (6+ inches in diameter) in half, once upon a time, meaning to put some sort of rod between the two halves, but then calculated the volume of developer needed and didn't go forward. Having sold off my Jobos, it never occurred to me to roll the cylinder. I don't know the diameter of a Jobo tank. Four feet of film on a 6 inch reel would only extend 1/2 - 3/4 inch from the outside edge.

Len: the plastic tub is used was something I bought in a supermarket. About 10-11 inches long, 6 inches wide and 2-3 inches high. A food storage container. I always used one shot developers. Do you have a Container Store nearby? Always good for inspiration. Check out their website, otherwise.

Charley

 

[paul_c5x4]

The tubs I used are made by Rubbermaid, possibly called "dishpans". The only problem is they are slightly flexible, so when pouring chemicals back out of them into a bottle, care must be taken.

Have a look around your local hardware & DIY stores for some cheap syphon pumps. I picked up a pair of these http://www.rolsontools.com/2pc-syphon-pump.html late last year - Came in very handy for emptying a couple of large trays.

 

[jamie young]

Speaking of developing I decided to do a modified "washtub development of a 16" 20 foot neg that I shot in 2006 but was afraid to tackle. I made rollers and brackets for trays so i could roll it back and forth for more even development. Well it didn't work. My development process has a sodium metabolite prewash, and it wasn't working, so I cut the neg off the rollers and just wound it back and forth for the rest of the process in a 8 foot tray. The best of plans sometimes fall apart. Despite my best effort to screw it up I did get a ok negative. I'm very happy

 

[Len Robertson]

Duncan - If you can get more details from Mark Crabtree on what reel he started with and how his loader works it would be very useful. I suspect a Paterson reel doesn't have enough capacity for even 6 feet of film. I don't have any 220 stainless reels, but they may be the same story. I measured the length of a roll of 120 film as a bit over 32". Double that for 220 and it is 64" or 5 1/2 feet which isn't very much unless there is some extra capacity on either Paterson or 220 SS reels. I did a search and see 15 feet mentioned as the capacity of "standard" 70mm reels. I suppose the diameter of a 70mm reel could be reduced so it would fit into a smaller container using less chems.

Somewhere I have one of those "loaders" for helping load SS reels, although I've never used it. If that idea could be scaled up for 10" width film it might be possible to load film onto a lengthened 70mm SS reel. However I wonder if chemicals sloshing against the film would tend to push it off the reel? At least for rotary processing with minimum chems in the drum it seems that could be an issue. A full film tank with stand development and minimal gentle agitations sounds safer. But if Mark has come up with a system I'd love to know what he has found.

Charley - Thanks for the Container Store idea. The nearest store is about 250 miles from me, so I'll have to look through their website. I looked at my Rubbermaid tubs. They have a number 2951 18 cast into the bottom and dimensions inside at the bottom of about 9 1/2" X 11" and a depth of 5 1/2". One gallon of solution fills the tub to a little over 2" depth. I think I used at least 2 gallons of chems to be sure the film was covered, but that much might not be necessary.

paul_c5x4 - Thanks for the idea on the siphon. Those should be inexpensive enough to have one siphon dedicated to each chemical. I'll look for some of those the next time I get to the city.

jamie - What is the purpose of the "sodium metabolite prewash"? Anything to do with reducing fog in outdated aerial film? When I get to using my aerial film of unknown age I have a feeling fog is going to be an issue to deal with.

Len

 

[jamie young]

I process in rollo pyro which is a staining developer, and get it from Bostick and sullivan. They recommend the prewash to maximize the stain, and I've followed their directions and have been happy with the results so I keep on doing it. It's not about fog, for me at least. Most all my cirkut negs are done in it since I started 15 yrs ago

 

[frobozz]

Duncan - If you can get more details from Mark Crabtree on what reel he started with and how his loader works it would be very useful. I suspect a Paterson reel doesn't have enough capacity for even 6 feet of film. I don't have any 220 stainless reels, but they may be the same story. I measured the length of a roll of 120 film as a bit over 32". Double that for 220 and it is 64" or 5 1/2 feet which isn't very much unless there is some extra capacity on either Paterson or 220 SS reels. I did a search and see 15 feet mentioned as the capacity of "standard" 70mm reels. I suppose the diameter of a 70mm reel could be reduced so it would fit into a smaller container using less chems.

Yes, my understanding is that you take a standard 70mm Nikor reel, cut off a bit of the spiral to reduce the diameter to something Jobo can handle, then space the two halves apart with PVC. I too worry about the film, especially thin aerial film, staying in the spiral across that kind of width. For instance in my Nikor 4x5 tank there's a center support because even a 4" span is too much to float freely! But you can't spiral-load feet of film with a center support so that's out.

Has anyone tried taking 6 or 8 feet of 4" ABS pipe and loading a Cirkut negative in sideways?? I don't think a Jobo is going to handle that, but you could at least roll it around on the ground to get that same kind of efficient use of chemicals.

Duncan

 

[Len Robertson]

jamie - Thanks for the explanation on the prewash. I tried one of the pyro developers a few years ago (Pyrocat-HD I believe). I want to experiment more with pyro when I have more time in the darkroom. I use HC-110 now mostly cause it is easy and stores well.

Duncan - At the Yellowstone IAPP convention many years ago Bob Erickson (same guy who did the Paterson reel article) gave a talk on Cirkut film development in a long length of black plastic pipe. I've never seen anything in print on his method, but a couple of things I remember from his talk - he made some sort of a removable loader fixture for one end of the pipe which was lined with velvet, presumably to feed the film into the pipe without scratching the film back. I don't know if this fixture was straight sided or funnel shaped. He also said he taped the corners of the film to the inside of the pipe once it was loaded. So both ends of the pipe would need to be removable. I think at Home Depot I saw rubber end caps with SS bands that tighten like a hose clamp, but just a regular plastic end cap may be leak proof enough to work. I don't remember if he used any special fixture on one end cap to pour chems in. I suspect not. Since a darkroom is needed to load the pipe it seems just pouring the developer or prewash in and then capping with a plain cap would be quick and easy. I suppose a Unicolor or Beseler print drum end could be adapted to fit the end of the plastic pipe, but the fill/drain times may be rather long. I don't know what volume solution is needed for something like a 6 foot length of 4 inch diameter pipe. I'm not absolutely sure what diameter pipe Bob used. I've always thought 4" since that is commonly available, but larger diameters could be found. The inner circumference of 4" pipe is about 12 1/2". I don't know if 10" film would be more difficult to load than 8". I believe Bob was doing this with 8" film, although he may have done both sizes.

There is thread on LF Forum on a DIY motor base: http://www.largeformatphotography.i...IY-jobo-base-(work-in-progress-input-welcome) This idea could be scaled up to handle the weight of a Cirkut sized pipe "film drum". I've seen a picture of a roller fixture someone made from roller blade wheels or something similar to rotate big drums on. Or just hand rolling in the darkroom sink or on the floor would work.

I think it was after Bob's talk about the long pipe idea that he did the extended Paterson reel article in the IAPP newsletter. In his talk he said he was shooting conventions and developing and printing in motel rooms all night. Then he would have prints ready to sell the second day of the convention. So the Paterson tank would be a lot more portable. Also he was doing C-41 so temperature control would be easier with the Paterson tank.

Rereading his article on the Paterson reel, he says the Paterson reel hold 6 feet of film which wasn't quite long enough for some of the Kodak factory loads of Cirkut film, so he would just sacrifice the length over 6 feet. But it seems hacking a 70mm reel to get extra length capacity would be a better idea than starting with a Paterson (or probably 220 SS reel).

Len

 

[frobozz]

I also have some of those "big-tank" Nikor reels, the ones that go in the 4.5" diameter series of tanks like the 4x5 reel does. They're 35mm and 120 (and maybe 220?) and I always assumed they just used the extra room to spread the film apart more between spirals, but maybe there's some extra length there too. I'll have to dig them out and check now!

Duncan

 

[Al-Vista]

My motor was pretty gummed up and squeaky, and I'm pretty mechanically inclined, so I figured what the heck. Even though there is no information at all about these things that I can find on the internet, I'm going to tear into this thing. But I took pictures along the way so now there will be information on the internet, next time someone goes looking!

First thing to do is remove the knob and its matching knurled plate and spring, from the top of the drum. It just unscrews in the normal direction. Next up, remove the single setscrew that holds the drum shaft to the motor. To do this you need to spin the drum that is now freewheeling until the film latch is on top, which leave the big gap at the bottom to see the setscrew through. Then run the motor until you can see the setscrew and stop it. This should be your view at the bottom of the drum:

Carefully unscrew the setscrew. It may drop into the drum. Either retrieve it now, or remember to get it later when it's easier with more stuff out of the way. You have to completely remove it, not just loosen it, because it acts by putting a little pin on its end down into a hole in the shaft. Now you should be able to just pull the rod out from the top end where the knob was. Mine was a little stuck because the hole in the shaft was a bit mushroomed out from where the pin had pressed against it. Gently with pliers, or maybe by screwing the knob back on, or somehow you should be able to slowly twist and pull it out. Before reinstalling later, lightly file off any mushrooming around the hole, then it goes right in easily.

Next run the motor all the way down - this will be important later, when it would be much harder to do! Then turn the on/off switch about halfway, which will let you get to a little pin that is shoved through the shaft of the switch as seen here:

I used small needlenose pliers to shove it from the pointy end (on the left in the above picture) partway out of its hole (towards the right in the above picture) by squeezing on the pointy end with one side of the pliers, and the shaft with the other side of the pliers, until the pointy end is flush with the hole. Then use the pliers to grasp the other end which is now standing above the hole, and gently yank it out of the hole. Then you should be able to rotate the switch without rotating the internal lever that actuates the slit shutter, which should allow you to pull it out from the side of the camera (towards the bottom in the above picture.) I pried gently on the plate for the switch, and then gently pried between the halves of the shaft as it came apart. It's pretty tight.

Next you need to remove the shutter speed lever screw, and the 2 screws that hold on its surrounding plate, as seen here:

The plate will just gently pry out, and then you can grasp the shaft with some pliers and pull it out too, separating its gear from the speed limiting pawl thingy.

Now remove the 12 screws holding the motor into the body of the camera, as seen here:

Now you should be able to pull the whole motor out of the camera body. The slot shutter lever will slide off of the shutter pin, the pawl thingy may drop out, but it should all be out in your hands now. Careful, it's heavy!

Some pictures of the motor (mine had some corrosion spots on the main plates):

More disassembly pictures and instructions in the following posts...

Duncan

Hello Duncan
I know this thread was started a few years ago, but I'm about to start on the same path - actually with a #8. So I would really value being able to access your pictures as well as the text. Any chance of being able to do that?
Thanks
John

 

[europanorama]

messages changed from motor to developping....???!!!! not good to find the latter later. how about using molykote DX. i am using in roundshot 65/70/220. amount must be tested. it can change speed.