Cirkut # 10 motor disassembly, with pictures

My motor was pretty gummed up and squeaky, and I'm pretty mechanically inclined, so I figured what the heck. Even though there is no information at all about these things that I can find on the internet, I'm going to tear into this thing. But I took pictures along the way so now there will be information on the internet, next time someone goes looking!

First thing to do is remove the knob and its matching knurled plate and spring, from the top of the drum. It just unscrews in the normal direction. Next up, remove the single setscrew that holds the drum shaft to the motor. To do this you need to spin the drum that is now freewheeling until the film latch is on top, which leave the big gap at the bottom to see the setscrew through. Then run the motor until you can see the setscrew and stop it. This should be your view at the bottom of the drum:



Carefully unscrew the setscrew. It may drop into the drum. Either retrieve it now, or remember to get it later when it's easier with more stuff out of the way. You have to completely remove it, not just loosen it, because it acts by putting a little pin on its end down into a hole in the shaft. Now you should be able to just pull the rod out from the top end where the knob was. Mine was a little stuck because the hole in the shaft was a bit mushroomed out from where the pin had pressed against it. Gently with pliers, or maybe by screwing the knob back on, or somehow you should be able to slowly twist and pull it out. Before reinstalling later, lightly file off any mushrooming around the hole, then it goes right in easily.

Next run the motor all the way down - this will be important later, when it would be much harder to do! Then turn the on/off switch about halfway, which will let you get to a little pin that is shoved through the shaft of the switch as seen here:



I used small needlenose pliers to shove it from the pointy end (on the left in the above picture) partway out of its hole (towards the right in the above picture) by squeezing on the pointy end with one side of the pliers, and the shaft with the other side of the pliers, until the pointy end is flush with the hole. Then use the pliers to grasp the other end which is now standing above the hole, and gently yank it out of the hole. Then you should be able to rotate the switch without rotating the internal lever that actuates the slit shutter, which should allow you to pull it out from the side of the camera (towards the bottom in the above picture.) I pried gently on the plate for the switch, and then gently pried between the halves of the shaft as it came apart. It's pretty tight.

Next you need to remove the shutter speed lever screw, and the 2 screws that hold on its surrounding plate, as seen here:



The plate will just gently pry out, and then you can grasp the shaft with some pliers and pull it out too, separating its gear from the speed limiting pawl thingy.

Now remove the 12 screws holding the motor into the body of the camera, as seen here:



Now you should be able to pull the whole motor out of the camera body. The slot shutter lever will slide off of the shutter pin, the pawl thingy may drop out, but it should all be out in your hands now. Careful, it's heavy!

Some pictures of the motor (mine had some corrosion spots on the main plates):








More disassembly pictures and instructions in the following posts..

Duncan

It's nice to see this documented.

Here are shots of the speed limiter parts, separated and reinstalled so you can see what is going on. The pawl with the fuzzy head limits the upward travel of the governor bottom plate - it gets pulled up by the outward force of the weights, which bends the springs and lifts the sliding bottom collar, since the top collar is fixed to the shaft. The shaft with the gear on the end sets the height of that fuzzy pawl, and thus the top speed of the motor. It seems to me that even though it looks like a brake, what you really want is the absolute minimum friction between the pawl and the collar - it should limit the upward position of the collar and thus the speed via the governor action, not because it is dragging on the collar and slowing it down. So I wonder if there should be some graphite there, or if the fuzzy head needs replacing if it gets too flattened out, or what. More pondering needed there.







Here are a couple of views of the on/off switch pieces. I should have included the little pin in these shots so you could see what it looks like out of the shaft, but at this point in the disassembly I had carefully stowed all of the itty bitty hardware parts in 35mm film canisters because I was scared to death of losing any of them!









Next you remove the 3 nuts that hold the round plate on above the spring housing and simply pull the plate off. This will allow you to remove the spring housing from the rest of the motor, as shown below. WARNING!!!!!! This is where you really want to have run the motor all the way down. If not, you will suddenly release the tension inside the motor all at once, which will cause you to get a nasty blood blister on your pinky, and will make the center shaft of the motor keep traveling after the spring is unwound, popping it out of its keyhole slot in the motor. Or at least that's what I speculate would happen. I would certainly have no direct knowledge of that, since I would never be so foolish to get into that situation, since I would never, having released the tension, wind it up a bit again before further disassembly to check something else out, and forget...



Note when pulling the spring housing out, there are two washers on the bottom (shown below) - the thin one next to the housing and the thick one outside of that, putting it resting on the bottom plate when assembled. This is definitely a spot you want to make sure is oiled when reassembling - both sides of both washers. [Note: I am noting the location and relative positions of things like washers based on what I found when disassembling my motor, but it had clearly been disassembled before, so if it had previously been put back together wrong, then I'll be accidentally providing incorrect information here. If anyone spots resulting errors like that please let me know and we can correct these instructions!)




If you want to take the spring housing apart (or if you need to for some reason like, oh I don't know, the center post has popped out of the keyhole in the spring...) then here is how: First, mark the lid so you can put it back on in the same position. On mine, someone had made a couple of small but firm scratches near one of the screws, that went on the lid and continued on the body of the housing. Then remove the 3 screws around the rim of the top, then twist the lid back and forth while pulling up and it will eventually come off. It's all a tight fit and well sealed, so you're kind of pulling against air pressure when you do this, but it will eventually come apart. Make sure to hold it upright (gear and ratchet on the bottom), and the spring should stay inside. If you were to hold it upside down and the spring were to come out, that's the situation where it uncoils like a deadly snake and cuts the heads and limbs off of any living thing within 10 feet. But hold it upright and it should just sit there, like pictured below:



Mine looked pretty oil-free and well graphited so I just left it alone after putting the center shaft nub back into its keyhole, and put the lid back on, making sure to line up the marks. Twist the lid while putting it and and the center shaft will eventually walk its way into the hole in the lid - you'll feel it when that happens. Get each screw started a little bit before tightening any of them.

Now remove the 6 nuts holding the full top plate of the motor assembly on. 3 on the posts that held the round plate above the motor, and 3 around the governor area. They are different nuts - the 3 around the motor hole are taller, and have a flat side that goes up, and an inset side that goes down, when reassembling. Carefully walk the top plate up off of all the 6 mounting points and youll have what you see here:



Well, actually, that small gear over by the governor will fall out onto the table, but I put it back for the picture!

Here is the gear train down on the plate. Note the thin washer on top of the one gear - that's another part to not lose (!), and clean and lightly oil both sides upon reassembly.



More in subsequent posts...

Duncan

Continuing on... Here is a better view of the underside of the top plate. Note that the gears do ride against this plate somewhat, but not nearly so much as the lower plate, because of gravity. (This is one of many reasons why running a Cirkut upside down might not work as well ;-) ) So definitely oil those spots when reassembling, but for routine maintenance, the idea that you can just oil the easily accessible lower gear shaft points is actually a sound one.




Here is another view of everything in this state of disassembly. Note the pointy bottom of the governor shaft. I guess because it spins so fast they didn't want the flat bearing surfaces like with all the other gears, even with washers. It's a tiny point that goes down into an even tinier hole. Remember that the top mounting of the governor is also a point (on the end of the screw that goes down into the top of the governor shaft.) This is why you definitely want to set that top screw so there's a little end play. If you crank it down too hard you'll be pushing all these points into smaller holes and wedging them.



Here's what the bottom plate looks like with the gears removed:



Here is the underside view of those removed gears. Note once again on that same gear as before, there's a thin washer to keep track of.



I didn't take any more pictures because my hands got really dirty from here on out, but what I did is this: I used very fine (00 or 000) steel wool to polish around all the bearing points on the plates. While I was at it I also polished all those corrosion spots, just because they looked so bad. When I was oiling everything else, I also spread a very thin film of oil on the plates to try to limit future corrosion (at some potential cost of attracting dirt...) I was using gun oil and it's the same principle as with a gun - you want the oil there not only to lubricate, but also to prevent corrosion. I cleaned and oiled the shaft for the governor brake (the one with the spring around it in the above pictures) in place - I didn't try to disassemble it, because that spring is so strong, and it therefore only needed to be pretty clean and decently oiled to result in working perfectly. I cleaned and very lightly oiled the bearing surfaces of the gears (the shiny silver parts near the shafts) and any washers. By lightly oiled I mean I put a little gun oil on there and then rubbed it around with a Q-tip, which had the benefit of mopping up any excess.

Putting the top plate back on is tricky. First get the 3 big main gears down on the bottom plate. Then holding the upper plate sideways, put the small gear in place up against the governor in the top plate and hold it in place. Now tip the bottom plate up nearly sideways to match (not fully 90 degrees though, or the big gears fall off!) and feed the top plate down onto the 3 long posts, and then onto the 3 shorter posts, all while not dropping that small gear, and at some point using your third hand (!) to pull the brake back out of the way. It's fiddly but it can be done. Then once it's almost all the way together, you reach in and scoot the small gear and the governor around until they actually seat in their holes in the bottom plate. Hold it together and make sure everything spins (when the brake is released), then keep holding it together while replacing the 6 nuts that hold on the top plate.

Now clean and oil the bottom of the spring housing and those 2 washers and feed it into place on the bottom plate - made easier again if you hold it sideway so the washers don't just fall off. You'll need to fiddle with the ratchet pawl there because it will want to just flop into the way, but once the motor housing is most of the way down you can reach in with a small screwdriver and push the pawl back and forth until the spring housing drops down into position. Then replace the round cover plate and its 3 nuts. Now you can do a little basic testing of the motor. You can wind it up a bit, push the brake lever out of the way and see that everything spins properly. If you took apart the top bearing screw on the governor now is a good time to readjust it. Then you're ready to put it all back together. Insert the inner half of the on/off switch shaft, the part that actuates the slit flap, into its hole in the top plate, with its actuating arm straight up. Insert the fuzzy-headed speed limiting pawl thingy down into its slot near the governor, pushed all the way down until it contacts the governor plate. Feed the motor back into the camera body while holding it upright, making sure the drum (which is just flopping around) is in position to let the spring housing come up into it, and the slit flap actuating arm on the motor clears into its hole in center of the body. Now install 3 or 4 of the 12 screws that hold the motor in, to hold it in place.

Hold the film drum with the film latch facing you, so you can see down into where the setscrew will go. Run the motor (by pulling back on the brake lever with your finger) until the setscrew hole in the spring housing is facing you. Now feed the long shaft back down through the drum. You'll have to wiggle it inside the drum until it feeds through the bottom hub of the drum, and then you'll have to wiggle the drum until the shaft can feed on down into the hub of the spring housing. Once there, spin the shaft until you can see its hole down through the hub's setscrew hole. Now you have to install the setscrew, which is a little tricky. I used a dab of sticky glue on the top of the screw, to make it stick to the screwdriver while I lowered it down into place. You need lots of light to see what you're doing here. Once it's there you can carefully start screwing it in, making sure it's not cross threaded. Odds are it will bottom out almost immediately - don't force it! That's because the hole in the shaft isn't really lined up quite right. While very gently trying to tighten the screw (almost no pressure at all, just the tiniest bit), just wiggle the shaft back and forth the tiniest bit...at some point, you should feel the resistance go away, as the setscrew pin heads down into the shaft hole. Keep doing that until the setscrew really does bottom out and is secure. At that point it's still above the hub quite a bit. This isn't one of those setscrews that ends up recessed into its hole in the hub. Now replace the spring, knurled plate, and knob on the top of that shaft.

Now feed the on/off switch and shaft in through the side of the camera body and through the boss on the motor top plate, until it starts to engage with the other half of the shaft. You need to push and wiggle until its seated fully. Spin the switch on the outside until the holes line up and you can feed the tiny pin back in, pointy end first. Once I got it in just a bit, I turned the switch about halfway, so that I could take small needlenose pliers and press the pin down in fully, by putting one side of the pliers on the pin, and the other side on the other side of the shaft. Once that's done, spin it on and off to make sure it works, that the slit flap is opening and closing, etc.

Now comes the fun part. Getting the speed switch all back together right. Here's how I did it; perhaps there is a better way. Slide the geared shaft down through the hole, with the square end squared up with the camera body, until you feel it engage with the gear and slide fully in. Then, without installing the screw for the lever, just put the lever on the shaft (which should leave it pointing just below the 1/2 setting) and then spin it up to the 1/2 setting. If everything went well, that's correct. Odds are everything didn't go well. Wind up the motor and test the speeds to see if 1/2 is really 1/2 and 1/12 is really 1/12. If the speeds are too fast then you need to set the pointer to 1/2, remove the lever, then carefully, oh so carefully, pull the shaft up out of mesh with the gear (I used needlenose pliers), spin it counterclockwise one tooth, then push it back in mesh with the gear, then retest. If it was going too slow, same thing but spin it clockwise one tooth before reinserting. The problem comes when you think you're reinserting it one tooth off but what really happens is the limiting pawl moves a tooth too and you're just back in the same spot you were before. Eventually you'll get it right. Well, eventually I did, I can't promise for you! Then remove the lever, reinstall the plate that secures the shaft in place on the body, and the two screws that hold it. Replace the lever and its one screw. Replace the rest of the 12 screws on the bottom plate. You're done! Go shoot some pictures.

Oh yeah, how does one test the speeds you ask? I have a document that explains it, let me ask permission from the author before reposting it here.

Duncan

Wow, Duncan, thanks so much for taking the time to post all this information. For a long time I have been putting off tearing into my governor #10 that has a broken spring. I knew there was something about pushing out a tapered pin that had me worried, but you explain that quite well. I've done C&L on a #6 and #8 but it was years ago so most of your information was new to me.

Jim Lipari did a C&L on my #10 motor, but the spring broke not too long afterward and I picked up an #8 Outfit locally, so set the #10 aside. I want to get the #10 running since it seems easier to spool 9 1/2" aerial film I have for the #10 rather than cut it down to fit the #8. I ordered a batch of #10 film spools and paper leaders from a seller on eBay. I got an email this morning that they have been shipped.

I've taken the spring out of the case on #6 and #8s and it really isn't bad to do if common sense is used. Safety glasses is a good idea. I think the first one I removed I wore safety glasses and a plastic face shield and probably welding gloves. I may have done the work down inside a 5 gallon bucket to try to contain the dangerous spring! I was a bit disappointed when the spring was actually quite tame. But if your spring is well graphited, you probably don't need to mess with it.

I don't know if you have successfully adjusted the speeds on your motor. I had trouble getting much of a range of speeds when I did my #8. I posted a question on one of the forums for help and was told that sometimes it is very difficult to get a full speed range. And not to worry about it, just run the camera with whatever speeds I could get.

Jim Lipari replaced the leather brake on my #10 with a new piece of leather, but I don't know if that was something he always did when overhauling a Cirkut or if my leather was especially bad.

Len

Len Robertson said:

I don't know if you have successfully adjusted the speeds on your motor. I had trouble getting much of a range of speeds when I did my #8. I posted a question on one of the forums for help and was told that sometimes it is very difficult to get a full speed range. And not to worry about it, just run the camera with whatever speeds I could get.

Click to expand...

Well I never tested them beforehand, but when I was trying to find the right position for the lever, 1/2 and 1/12 checked out almost dead-on. The 1/2 runs too slow if I really crank the lever down to the 1/2 position (thus my thinking that the fuzzy head and governor plate need some sort of lubrication between them!) but if I bump it up just a tad it's fine. From the sound of it the camera was running too slow before, due to all the rattling and squeaking and such. Definitely needed a rebuild.

Now I need to take it out in the 20 degree weather and see if it runs; pre-rebuild it wouldn't move in those temps.

Duncan

Hiya, Len. Good to see the old gang is still breathing.

Duncan: Even cool weather can slow down a Cirkut. I was highly embarrassed when I could not get my No 10 running at 45 degrees. Not a crowd pleaser. Let us know how the cold weather work comes out.

Your disassembly photos bring back fond memories....of other embarrassments. I had to make a new tapered pin for my No 10. I believe if you make the pin too long, it only goes in one way. I seem to recall, after ruining a test roll of film, that you can reassemble that shaft so that the shutter opens when the motor is off, and closes when the motor is on. Circuits are great fun.

Charley

Hi Charley - I haven't been at all active with Cirkuts for several years now, but Duncan's posts are giving me Cirkut Fever. I still don't know if I'm going to retire this year or not. If I do I'll have lots of time for photography. Although I have dozens of non-photography projects piled up waiting until retirement.

The only IAPP convention I attended was at West Yellowstone in late October (don't recall the year). Whoever picked the date didn't realize it gets cold in Montana by that time of year (few people though). I watched a guy set up and shoot with his Cirkut (#8 I think) with the temp probably right about freezing or a bit colder. The camera started out fine, then about 1/3 of the way around started to slow down. I was somewhat shocked when he reached out and started pushing it around to help it along. Thinking about it later I realized that was the sensible thing to do to at least try to get the shot. I've since learned some Cirkut shooters put a finger on the body as it runs to sort of smooth out any irregularities in the travel. I can't remember if mildly pushing or holding back a touch against the forward motion is recommended. I tried that on the last rolls I shot with my #8 and it seemed to help reduce banding, although I think I was still getting some. Maybe if a Cirkut is running properly it doesn't need a laying on of hands.

I have a vague memory of Jim Lipari saying to put a drop of oil on the leather brake, but let me see if I can find if he said that in a letter. I may be misremembering and oiling the leather is the wrong thing to do.

Len

Just left the film box outside for 20 minutes in the 5 degree weather - I didn't realize it was that cold! It ran for a few gear turns and then stopped. Had to warm up inside for another 20 minutes before it would even budge again. So that's definitely not Cirkut temps! But I'll have to try it again at 20, 30, 40 degrees etc. to see where a freshly rebuilt motor can still be expected to work.

As much as I love this old technology, I'm thinking an Arduino processor driving a couple of stout stepper motors would be a much better drive system for one of these! It's kind of silly how the two shafts (film spool and pivot drive) both turn relatively slowly, but there's this whole highly-leveraged geartrain in there, whose endpoint (the governor) gets up to insane speeds... all just so it can be moving fast enough for a governor to work. Which it then doesn't in the cold.

Duncan

Here is a picture of Will Landon frolicking in the snow with a Cirkut: http://www.rainierpanorama.com/html/bio.html but he may have done something trick with the camera like an electric motor or maybe keeping the Cirkut film back inside his shirt until just before shooting with it. Keeping the back in a foam cooler with hot bricks until everything is set up to shoot might work. I'm a fair weather photographer myself.

Len

frobozz said:

As much as I love this old technology, I'm thinking an Arduino processor driving a couple of stout stepper motors would be a much better drive system for one of these!

Click to expand...

You're over engineering the problem. I would have thought a small DC motor with a simple speed controller would be sufficient.

paul_c5x4 said:

You're over engineering the problem. I would have thought a small DC motor with a simple speed controller would be sufficient.

Click to expand...

Oh absolutely, and I gather that's all the "electrified Cirkuts" are. But I'm thinking ahead to solving all the problems at once. With two motors and a processor, the gear selections for different lenses and distances would be cut from software, not brass ;-) (Not to mention that they could be precise, not "to the nearest number of whole teeth")

Duncan

Oh, Duncan! You're talking heresy! Why bother with a Cirkut if you're not going to join the fraternity of photographers who have been humbled by the eccentricities of a spring powered brass motor?

My favorite humiliation: I lined everyone (~50) up on the lawn at a grandson's birthday party and, obeying the wisdom of the ancients, ran the No 10 once, without film, both to demonstrate it to the crowd and to assure myself it would work that day. No problem. I loaded the film, and unwisely decided to give the spring an extra crank, 'just in case'. Bad idea. Sprang! The spring broke as I wound it. This is why true Cirkuteers always have two Cirkuts.

Len: I've read the same hands-on wisdom years ago. I always kept a little finger pressure inward and forward, thinking that would help with any wear on the gears. I like the brick and cooler trick.

Charley

Oh, I absolutely want to use the original motor when at all possible! I'm trying to get a #10 parts camera (I have a line on one) for doing the MacGyvering on. Given my scarce free time I'll have plenty of chances to use the original motor (warm weather only though!) long before I'd have built an alternative.

When I did my first test in 20 degree weather with the unrebuilt motor and it didn't start going, I added some finger pressure. Well, let's call it HAND pressure. To a point, the governor will govern the speed regardless of whether a spring or a hand is supplying the force, so I wasn't shy about pushing it. So it actually worked, with the expected overexposure in the first 1/2" or so of image until my help got it up to speed. But the results were obviously invalid in terms of finding out if I had banding (because I was overriding all the forces which might cause banding) and if the speed was exactly right (because I was overriding all the forces which might slow down the speed) so all I was left with was whether the lens would pass an image and whether my exposure calculations were near to correct... and I screwed that up too, which is a story for another day. And then the temps dropped to 0 and negative 15 and such ever since, so I haven't had another chance. I was hoping that rebuilding the motor would let me scoff at the cold and run some more tests, but apparently not.

OK, I guess I'll tell the story. I don't want to waste 10" film while I get my camera sorted out, so I hacked together an ugly but effective 35mm adapter. It puts the canister up about an inch below the rewind knob, and fills the full 10" space on the supply side of the box. I set the camera up in the dead center of a cul-de-sac near my house, which puts all 4 houses around the circle at about the same distance. With 35mm film I'm not going to get a usable picture, but I figured with the 10-7/8" lens I'd get some images of bits of windows and doors and siding and bushes or whatever. I could see if they were well exposed, see if they were sharp and in focus, etc. I ran the test with my "helping hand" then packed everything back up and developed the film, which was HP5. When I first pulled it out of the PhotoFlo, it just looked like an overexposed nothing - medium-dark flat grey along the whole thing... except I could see in the middle a good out of focus image of the bark of the tree that was also in the middle of the circle, a couple of feet from my camera. Weird.

Once it dried, I looked at it under magnification, and my error became clear. Some of you may have already guessed it. Despite knowing how cameras work, despite having looked at the image on the ground glass to focus before taking the picture, I totally forgot that my high-mounted 35mm film was going to be catching the parts of the image at the bottom of the scene. So what I had taken was a perfect picture of the absolutely flat, featureless grey expanse of asphalt around the circle! A perfect picture of the absolutely least interesting subject matter on the planet. Oh, there was a tiny twig here and a bit of leaf there, but it was really just asphalt. Wayyyy up in the sprocket holes, I could just see the edges of the concrete curb, with the occasional expansion joint. I had centered and leveled the camera so well that the curb line was perfectly up in the sprocket holes, it never once dipped down into the main image area, where maybe I could have scanned that little section of film and said "see! I took a picture!"

So yes, I'm already a member of the Cirkut humiliation club, first time out.

I've now built a 220 adapter, and lined it up more in the center of the film transport area, just to give myself more of a fighting chance to get a useful image next time. But we're going to need some warmer temps around here before there's a next time...

Duncan

frobozz said:

So yes, I'm already a member of the Cirkut humiliation club, first time out.

Click to expand...

Welcome, brother.

Charley

Well I redid my test at an outside temp of 30 degrees. Still no go from the motor. With a little push it would go a little bit and then stop again. Doing some research, not all gun oils are created equal, so looks like I'll be tearing this thing down and again and trying another oil. I will make it work at lower temps - I have to! Otherwise I can't play with it again until April...

Duncan

Go for it Duncan!. If you figure out a better cold weather lube that seems to work let us know. I've always used sewing machine oil. I have had my #8 out and somewhat successfully shot stuff in 30 degree weather. Other times not. Not sure why it has worked better one day than the next. I haven't tried my #10 fan camera. Maybe I'll experiment one of these days. At the moment I am working on cutting and spooling 6" film for my 6 camera (not outfit) and am determined to get out and take photos soon

I recall something about guys using Speed Graphics in cold conditions having all the oil cleaned out (I think this is the rear focal plane shutter) and graphite used as a lubricant. I tried to Google the subject and got bogged down in all the posts on Copal and Compur leaf shutters in cold weather. I did find this post on graphite as a gun lube: http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-261324.html which mentions Molybdenum disulfide powder as a preferred substitute for graphite.

When I first became interested in Cirkuts, clock oil was the oil most often mentioned. I believe this was because it was more clingy than normal oil and would tend to stay in place rather than migrate from where it was put. I suspect there are different grades and weights of clock oil. It seems like 100 years ago when houses weren't kept at 70F 24 hours a day, mechanical clocks probably had to keep running at fairly low temps. But I believe a clock uses a different mechanical principle than a Cirkut. Not a start up and continuous movement like a Cirkut.

It occurred to me a fan governor camera may do better in the cold than a ball governor one, but I've never seen the inside of a fan motor or even a picture of same. If anyone has a picture of a fan motor or link to one I'd love to see it. Someone told me fan cameras actually run smoother than ball governor ones, but whether this has any meaning in terms of cold weather shooting I don't have any idea.

Len

I found this just after my last post: http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/lubricants.html

Len

The problem with graphite is that it doesn't stay put. But maybe that Molykote stuff would, I'll have to look into that more. I think the materials involved in the motor (especially on the gear hubs) aren't up to just running without lube. I'm also thinking maybe wafer-thin teflon washers might do the trick but so far I can't find a place to source quantities under "thousands"... Thrust bearings is the real answer, but that would involved some serious machining of parts to make room for them so I'm not considering that an option.

Let me try one of the miracle gun oils, then if that doesn't work see if I can dig up some of the Molykote stuff. Pretty soon I'll be able to disassemble this motor with my eyes closed.

Duncan

Duncan - It might be worth contacting Ron Klein http://www.ronkleinphotos.com/ He must not be watching this forum anymore or he probably would have commented. Since he is located in Alaska he probably has some ideas on using Cirkuts in cold weather.

I'm going to try to find and send you an article from the IAPP newsletter on shooting closeups with a Cirkut. That way you can use your camera indoors until it warms up outside.

Len

frobozz said:

I'm also thinking maybe wafer-thin teflon washers might do the trick but so far I can't find a place to source quantities under "thousands"

Click to expand...

McMaster-Carr do a range of PTFE washers.. If they are too thick, how about using some leather punches to cut some from a thin sheet ?
Another possibility is one of the many dry lubricants on the market. One example https://www.rocol.com/products/foodgrade-dry-ptfe-spray-lubricant

Well it looks like Molybdenum Disulfide is also a favorite "dry lubricant" (eg Dead Link Removed ) though they all seem to come in aerosols for some reason. So maybe I'll try that before the miracle gun oils, because an oil thin enough not to gum up in cold weather is going to have the same issue as graphite - nothing to hold it in place. All these moly things talk about "binding" to the metals to stay put, so that sounds like what I need.

I've contacted Ron on another topic but no reply yet - if he surfaces, I'll ask him about this too.

Duncan

My 85 yr old clock-maker golf buddy spits every time I mention graphite as a lubricant. He says clockmakers abhor the stuff, as it's considered abrasive. He also says there's no such thing as a standard clock oil - he claims every old geezer has his own special formula.

I wonder if you can buy whale oil in Japan? Sure doesn't freeze.

Charley

Graphite is usually only put into the spring housing. No oil on the gear teeth, and light oil on the journals. Len - here are a few pics of my #10 fan camera, including during a servicing