Circles appearing on developed film

NikonFE · Jun 15, 2023

Hello! I'm relatively new to developing (only done a few dozen rolls). My most recent development yielded some results I have never seen before. These circles appeared on my negatives... but oddly only the last few frames of my Cinestill 800T rolls. It happened to both my rolls of 800T, and only the last 4 frames. Those 2 rolls of Cinestill were not in the same development tank. My suspicion is that it is due to how they dried? Like the water beads to the bottom of the roll while it hangs, where it pools and alters the film? Another thought is it could be air bubbles? But why only the last few frames?

They are not the typical hard water spots, which I usually rub off with a wipe. These spots appear to be in the film itself, not sitting on top of it. They will not rub off. I use distilled water for my chemistry and final rinse, although I use tap water for stuff like rinses in between chemistries. There is very low mineral content in my tap water. I have not ever used photo flo, because I really don't see much water spots. I went ahead and ordered some online just in case that might help. If it is the drying thing, would photo flo help? Obviously it would help if it is a mineral thing.

I'm happy to provide any other details.

Thank you for any help you can give!

Sirius Glass · Jun 15, 2023

Did you use the chemistry kit's final rinse? Did you follow up with anything else or was the final rinse the final rinse.

NikonFE · Jun 15, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Did you use the chemistry kit's final rinse? Did you follow up with anything else or was the final rinse the final rinse.

I have been using the Film Photography Project ECN2/C41 kit. It doesn't come with a final rinse. Only dev, bleach, fixer. I then rinse with tap water a couple times, then distilled water a couple times. I did like 40 rolls like that with no issues.

These Cinestill rolls were developed with a fresh kit I mixed the same day.

blee1996 · Jun 16, 2023

Looks like air bubbles to me. Do you pre-soak the film for 1-2 minutes before color developer?

I do that for c41 and e6. I use Patterson tanks, so the pre soak at or slightly higher than developer temperature can warm up the film and tank. In addition to get rid of the air bubbles and dye.

mshchem · Jun 16, 2023

How do you scan?

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

mshchem said:
How do you scan?

This was scanned with an epson v600 with a Lomography scanning mask.

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

blee1996 said:
Looks like air bubbles to me. Do you pre-soak the film for 1-2 minutes before color developer?

I do that for c41 and e6. I use Patterson tanks, so the pre soak at or slightly higher than developer temperature can warm up the film and tank. In addition to get rid of the air bubbles and dye.

I only ever rinse the film with room temp water. Good idea to soak! And at higher temp! That will improve wetting on the surface, reducing air bubbles.

koraks · Jun 16, 2023

Welcome to Photrio,@NikonFE !

This is a really weird phenomenon. Tiny air bubbles / uneven wetting is a possibility. I'm also reminded of condensation, but it's kind of odd that this would happen in such a specific place (only part of the roll) and twice in a row with two separate rolls (but that's true for an uneven wetting problem just as well). The overlapping pattern seems more consistent with air bubbles than water droplets.

Was the film refrigerated at any point? Did the camera with film loaded go through cycles of low/high humidity and/or low/high temperature?

In terms of prevention, I'd agree with trying what @blee1996 says and do a pre-soak to bring up the film and tank to temperature and (most importantly, here) to promote even wetting of the film. If the film is stored in a fridge or freezer, bring it up to temperature gradually before opening the can and loading the film into a camera.

Kino · Jun 16, 2023

I would contact Cinestill. Looks like maybe when they removed the remjet backing, they did a poor job of it and left water spots on the film.

This film does come with the remjet already removed, right?

koraks · Jun 16, 2023

Kino said:
This film does come with the remjet already removed, right?

Current production Cinestill never has had any remjet backing applied to it. They buy it in bulk from Kodak, who have agreed to skip the remjet application step for them.

Old Cinestill stock would have been subject to the kind of things you said, but I think that also came with the Kodak Vision edge printing. I might be mistaken on that. This evidently has Cinestill edge markings.

Rick A · Jun 16, 2023

Those are air bells. You need to rap the tank harder to dislodge the bubbles that are clinging to the film.

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

The film was kept in a fridge, but only for a couple weeks before I shot it. It had hours to warm up before I loaded it. I think I will shoot some more 800T and try better agitation methods, as well as photo flo! Thank you all for your advice!

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

Hey so I just remembered that these rolls were the first I've done with a new Hewe's stainless steel reel. In the past I was using cheaper stainless reels. The Hewe's reel worked great- but perhaps it is more prone to trapping air bubbles? But I did use this new Hewe's reel on 2 other rolls that were not Cinestill and this did not happen.

koraks · Jun 16, 2023

NikonFE said:
but perhaps it is more prone to trapping air bubbles?

I don't know, but it doesn't sound all that likely to me.

I'd give the pre-rinse a try. If these are trapped air bubbles that stick to the film during part of development, a pre-rinse should get rid of those pretty effectively.

Also do as @Rick A suggests and rap the tank on the counter to dislodge them. Although I have to say that once a bubble sits somewhere, it can be surprisingly persistent.

Valerie · Jun 16, 2023

Air bubbles. I see this with my students' film on occasion. Be sure to tap the tank strongly after each developer agitation cycle..

MattKing · Jun 16, 2023

NikonFE said:
Hey so I just remembered that these rolls were the first I've done with a new Hewe's stainless steel reel. In the past I was using cheaper stainless reels. The Hewe's reel worked great- but perhaps it is more prone to trapping air bubbles?

Changing to a different reel might result in needing a slightly different volume of chemicals. If the volume you are using covers the reels, but only barely, you might simply need a small amount more.

Sirius Glass · Jun 16, 2023

mshchem said:
How do you scan?

If the bubbles do not rub off the film, then chances are that scanning did not add the bubbles.

Sirius Glass · Jun 16, 2023

NikonFE said:
I only ever rinse the film with room temp water. Good idea to soak! And at higher temp! That will improve wetting on the surface, reducing air bubbles.

Pre-soaking can clear up a number of problems. And …

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio!!

Sirius Glass · Jun 16, 2023

Rick A said:
Those are air bells. You need to rap the tank harder to dislodge the bubbles that are clinging to the film.

Valerie said:
Air bubbles. I see this with my students' film on occasion. Be sure to tap the tank strongly after each developer agitation cycle..

Good call!

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

Thank you all so much for your advice! In general I really prefer film that is tolerant to imperfections in development and is easy to scan. Any recommendations there? I bought some svema film which is supposed to easy to scan due to how flat it lays. I even find myself preferring 24 exposure rolls due to them being easier to load onto the reel.

titrisol · Jun 16, 2023

NikonFE said:
View attachment 341431

Looks like air bubbles, I'm surprised on the quantity and how unifrmly they are througut the negative though, those ussualy show only on the top of the negative (by sprocket holes)

Did you see this in all frames or only a few? It'll point to a more likely emulsion defect.

To eliminate air bubbles:
Smack the tank in your palm after loading chemicals a couple of times to dislodge the bubbles (Or on a table top )
It takes some practice but it is easy and saves you lots of trouble.

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

titrisol said:
Looks like air bubbles, I'm surprised on the quantity though.
Did you see this in all frames or only a few?

Smack the tank in your palm after loading chemicals a couple of times to dislodge the bubbles (Or on a table top )
It takes some practice but it is easy and saves you lots of trouble.

This photo is the last frame. The 5th to last frame has 1 bubble, the 4th to last has like 10, and then the last 3 are full of bubbles like this.

MattKing · Jun 16, 2023

NikonFE said:
This photo is the last frame. The 5th to last frame has 1 bubble, the 4th to last has like 10, and then the last 3 are full of bubbles like this.

Is that the end of the film that went on the reel first - which is most commonly the way that people load reels - or is it the end that was loaded last?

NikonFE · Jun 16, 2023

MattKing said:
Is that the end of the film that went on the reel first - which is most commonly the way that people load reels - or is it the end that was loaded last?

The bubbles are from the end that was loaded first, i.e. the center of the steel reel.

mshchem · Jun 16, 2023

I think this may be a singular occurrence. Probably some bubbles or froth during the short 3 minute and 15 second development time.

Hewes reels are fabulous.

I would buy a brick of 10 rolls of Kentmere 400 black and white film, 24 exposure rolls, a bottle of Adox Rodinal, some rapid fixer and perfect your work flow. At 5 bucks a roll you can learn a lot.

Sometimes things happen and you never know what was the root cause.

When you're ready for more color, I would recommend some nice fresh Ektar and a nice liquid chemistry kit like Tetenal, something that comes with a proper stabilizer or final rinse.

Not a thing wrong with Cinestill films, I prefer the traditional Kodak color films. Like Hewes reels it hard to beat Ektar and Portra.

Circles appearing on developed film

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