Choosing a 6x6 TLR camera. Help!

lolaluna · Jan 22, 2009

Hello everyone!

Just found this great forum and need some help in choosing a 6x6 camera. Though I'm very new to medium format I have used a Pentax 67 before and would love to own a Mamiya 7 but can't afford that at the moment.

I am really confused with the many choices and personal preferences and read many many suggestions in other threads. This is the list of cameras I have compiled now. I am looking for something cheap (up to 300 pounds/400 dollars) and not too heavy (are TLR cheaper and lighter?).

Rolleiflex (different versions?)
Rolleicord (different versions?)
Yashica D
Yashica Mat 124
YASHICA 635
Mamiya c330/c220
Weltaflex
Ricohflex
Lubitel 166
Seagull

So, if anyone could make suggestions/comparisons about focus/lens quality, handling, price, different format choices on one camera etc. I would greatly appreciate it!

Thank you!!

Eva

archphoto · Jan 22, 2009

Dear Eva,

The Mamiya C330/C220 are the most versitile of your list because they have interchangeble lenses of high quality.
My choice if I would buy 6x6.
You should be able to pick one up from Ebay for about $ 200,--

The Rolleiflex has better optics than the Rolleicords and is more expensive and less versitile than the C330/C220.

Yashica's are good, forget the Lubitel .

I hope I helped you a bit,
Peter

Steve Smith · Jan 22, 2009

archphoto said:
The Rolleiflex has better optics than the Rolleicords

Not always. A Rolleicord with a Schneider Kreuznach Xenar lens would be a good choice. Similar to Rolleiflex but simpler and usually cheaper.

Steve.

Ian Grant · Jan 22, 2009

It's down to cost & reliability. Welcome toAPUG BTW

Forget the last 4 unless you want to be a collector. Then think do you want an expandable but slightly heavier system with interchangeable lense, If you do then go for the Mamiya preferably the 3 series anything from the C33, C330 onwards, slightly better spec than the C220's. mamiya's are quite heavy & bulky compared to other TLR's

If not if you can afford a Rollei then a Rollieflex is the best option, again a C, or E model or the more expensive F. For best value on a reasonable budget go for a Yashica, any of the 3 you mentioned are fine, not as robust as the Rollei's but well built and excellent lenses.

I've used all three Rolleiflex, Yashicamat & Mamiya C33's all are good camera's capable of excellent results,I still use the first two. Prices are around £100 for a good Yashica, £300 for a good Rollieflex and £150 for a good Mamiya C33/330. If you buy a Rollei then the f2.8 or f3.5 Planar's or Xenotar's are far better than the Tessar/Xenar. But lens quality on the Yashica & Mamiya's is good too.

Ian

Phillip P. Dimor · Jan 22, 2009

The ricohflex's are a mixed bag, provided you get one that works.. The lenses are sharp, it's a japanese copy of a rolleiflex. The meter is neat, the film advance is neat but prone to breaking. Mine was a paperweight.
The screen however is fantastic.. Very bright.

The lenses, while sharp, aren't in metal barrels. They are in plastic barrels. This probably doesn't make much of a difference but when I found this out I felt that it was sort of cheapish.. Otherwise it's not a bad camera provided it works.

I've had my eyes on a walzflex, however with those I hear the focus lubricant gums up and strips the gear (or just gums it up, I forget).. They look nice as well and don't seem to command the same (high) price the ricohflex's demand.

Rolleicords, or at least the one I used, was nice. Built nice, took sharp (SHARP!) pictures with a very pleasing out-of-focus look. Good size, not heavy, etc.

Flexaret's seem nice too..

Steve Smith · Jan 22, 2009

Phillip P. Dimor said:
Rolleicords, or at least the one I used, was nice. Built nice, took sharp (SHARP!) pictures with a very pleasing out-of-focus look. Good size, not heavy, etc.

I can't imagine mine being any sharper. The Xenars may not be up to the quality of Xenotars or Planars but I don't think those lenses are 'far better' as Ian suggests.

However I never use mine wide open so I could be wrong in that respect.

Steve.

PhotoJim · Jan 22, 2009

The Minolta Autocords are cheap, and good. I have a CDS II. It has a sharp lens and it's easy to use. The Autocords tend to cost more than the Yashicas, but less than the Rolleis.

Ian Grant · Jan 22, 2009

Tessar type lenses are always at their best stopped down, with LF versions usually to at least f16 and optimum performance is f22. With a TLR that's more likely to be around f11-f16 but yes they are good performers but the Xenotar's & Planar's with far outperform them at wider apertures.

Ian

brainsalad · Jan 22, 2009

Eva, I can offer observations on just a couple of these.

The Yashica 124 [G] is readily available and can make fine pictures. It's mostly a question of price. There are plenty of people around (notably Mark Hama) with repair expertise if needed. Its main weakness is flare when you have backlit subjects, caused by light bouncing off the painted sides of the light box. I recently lined part of mine with black "flocking paper" to help with that.

In my opinion the Seagulls are to be avoided unless you are getting one new with a warranty, since it's common to require more than one try to get a working unit, or unless someone is giving one to you for free, as happened to me. Compared to the Yashica, I like the fact that my Seagull has a true hotshoe, a split prism on the focusing screen, and a locking film door. (I once damaged a roll of film on my Yashica because the door popped open when I was unscrewing a tripod from the mount, which doubles as the door latch.)

zenrhino · Jan 22, 2009

The build quality on Seagulls (especially for the pricepoint) is just horrid. Avoid them.

Lubitels are cheap and a great way to get a first working experience with medium format, but like all former Soviet Union cameras, it's a craps shoot with build quality.

If you're really convinced a TLR is for you, spend the money right the first time -- Spend every single penny you can spare (and some you have to borrow) and get the very best Rolleiflex you can afford. The glass is stellar, the build quality is exceptional and there is a robust network of repair techs.

Edited to add: While Mark Hama may be legendary, he isn't immortal. Keep that in mind if considering a Yashicamat. Also, and I dont know if it was idiosyncratic to my 124-G, but my 'Mat had weird radial bokeh that, to be perfectly honest, made me motion sick to look at in big prints. And apparently, radial bokeh is common in 'Mats.

Mark Antony · Jan 22, 2009

I have a Rolleiflex T and yes the Tessar is softish at wide apertures and a little lower in contrast, stopped down to F8-11 the difference is less.
I have owned the Planar and Xenotar models too, the Planar to me is the best balanced lens with excellent sharpness across the field. The Xenotar was sharper in the centre at wider apertures but noticeably softer than the planar at the edges. Possibly the Xenotar was similar to the Tessar at wide apertures edge wise but with more contrast, stop any of them down to F11 and you'll not be able to pick them apart.
If you shoot portraits the Xenotar and Tessar will be fine edge wise, I don't think you can go wrong with any Rollei made after 1955- they're all good.

Yashica would be my choice if I were on a budget, a nice 124G is a good camera that will serve you well. The C330 is another good camera and the interchangeable lenses are a plus if you need that flexibility, but i find them a little heavy compared to my Rollei T you need to hold one in your hands before parting with any cash.
Here is my T which cost £100 from evil bay:
Rollei T
Mark

ricksplace · Jan 22, 2009

There is not a lot of difference between the Tessars and the Planars except at the wide open aperatures. I have a Rolleiflex T with a Tessar. Lens tests show that the lpm at f5.6-f16 is comparable to the Planar. (70-80 lpm vs 80-90 lpm respectively). Some of the earlier tessars may not have the same resolution. Actually, the tessar is less susceptible to flare than the Planar, given the same level of multicoating. I have a 80/2.8 Xenotar on a Century Graphic. While the Xenotar is needle sharp, the Tessar on the Rollei is more contrasty, and just as sharp.

I have and use a Yashica A, D, and a Rolleiflex T. While the lens tests show that the lpm of the Yashinon (4 element) is less than the tessar, in my experience, it's pretty hard to see the difference. The Yashinon lenses are quite good. The Yashikor (three element) lenses on the A are surprisingly good too.

I echo what has been said above, buy a Rollei if you can afford it. Next would be a Yashica with Yashinon lenses, or a Mamiya C220/330, then a Yashica with Yashikor lenses.

Just my .02

Rick

ricksplace · Jan 22, 2009

Jeez Mark, we sure think alike! You beat me to the punch...

Shangheye · Jan 22, 2009

You really need to decide first what you will be using it for. Do you need interchangeable lenses? Do you want a old vintage camera (with associated vintage look of 2 vs 3 element designs for lenses). Do you want a small TLR (discrete) or a large one?

For the money you have, you can get yourself almost any quality TLR, but you need to decide first which meets your needs...not ours ;-)

I own a 1954 Super ricohflex and used to own a Seagull...my Seagull died when I left it in a car in the summer heat and the focus mechanism jammed. Until then, it performed beautifully and had a distictive look.

I love the 2 element look of the Super Ricohflex and the creamy slightly swirly bokeh, but that is what I like.

If you look in my gallery, the picture I posted yesterday was with the Super Ricohflex.

Good Hunting. Kal

ntenny · Jan 22, 2009

Steve Smith said:
I can't imagine mine being any sharper. The Xenars may not be up to the quality of Xenotars or Planars but I don't think those lenses are 'far better' as Ian suggests.

Well, the Xenar is a Tessar design, so it's never going to be *as* highly corrected (especially wide open) as a Xenotar or Planar. But, really, that's a bit like saying "My Corvette doesn't go as fast as my Ferrari"; it's true, but how often would it really matter?

-NT

Steve Smith · Jan 22, 2009

ntenny said:
it's true, but how often would it really matter?

I think that's exactly the point I was trying to make!

Steve.

katphood · Jan 22, 2009

I had a Yashicamat 124G. Good build quality and so on but the lens on mine was lacking in contrast. Not bad mind you, but not great. From all I've heard, the Rolleicord is pretty good. Try KEH.com and look for a Rolleiflex. I've seen some there go for around 400. KEH's Bargain grade is just fine.

Steve Smith · Jan 22, 2009

Mark Antony said:
Yashica would be my choice if I were on a budget, a nice 124G is a good camera that will serve you well.

For some reason, the 124Gs sell for a lot more in the UK so in the case of the original poster, it may not be the best choice if there is a limited budget involved.

Steve.

tac · Jan 22, 2009

I have a number of different tlr's and quite honestly, my favorite is the "Yashica Mat."
All the others seem to have some deficit or other, e.g., the Mamiya is a wonderful camera, but heavy; the Rolleicord has an awkward (at least for me) cock and fire shutter; the Minolta Autocord has a weird helical focus.

Everyone seems to prefer the Yashica Mat 124 or esp. the 124G; the only difference that concerns me is that the 124's can take 220 film, which I don't use. But because everyone prefers them, the plain old Mat's can sometimes be had for a song.

Just my preference, I guess.

Now to contradict myself:
The Rolleiflex's are expensive, but are no doubt the better camera

Windscale · Jan 22, 2009

At the moment I am using my Rolleiflex with 75/3.5 Tessar. I also have a Planar 75/3.5 and a Xenotar 75/3.5. I use the Tessar because it is that little bit lighter. When you get on a bit, every ounce counts.

cooltouch · Jan 22, 2009

Over the years I have owned several TLRs. My first was a Yashicamat 124. A decent camera with a built-in meter that I seldom used. Took some nice photos with it. But by far, my favorites were the Rolleiflexes I've owned. A Rolleiflex Automat with either the f/3.5 Zeiss Tessar or Schneider Xenar is a great shooter. Either one will take great photos. Clean examples can still be found, but be prepared to pay a premium for them -- toward the top end of your budgeted range. I'd also recommend that, whichever way you go, make sure the camera has X-sync for flash. You'll probably want to use a flash sooner or later.

Best,

Michael

John Koehrer · Jan 22, 2009

There's a weight & size penalty to the Mamiyas so if weight is a consideration go with any of the others. That's the trade off for interchangeable lenses.

lolaluna · Jan 22, 2009

Mark Antony said:
The C330 is another good camera and the interchangeable lenses are a plus if you need that flexibility, but i find them a little heavy compared to my Rollei T you need to hold one in your hands before parting with any cash.
Here is my T which cost £100 from evil bay:
Rollei T
Mark

100pounds? That's sounds great but all I could find were some for about 400 Euros on German Ebay.

Wow, thank you very much everyone for all the helpful answers! I am amazed by the quickness and quantity of replies! I was aware that Rolleiflex would be the best (but also the most expensive) choice. I guess I'll have to see how much I can actually spare and if I'll be able to find something nice on Ebay UK or Germany. KEH.com is probably not good for me since I would have to pay import taxes. It's pretty hard to find some good used camera shops in London that are not overpriced...

Eva

Paul Howell · Jan 22, 2009

Yashica's D come with 2 lens, a 3 element and a 4 element, the same lens found of the 124. The 124 uses a lever winder that cocks the shutter, the D uses a knob and you need to cock the shutter, the 124 has a meter, not a TTL. I have and use both, the 124 is faster and will take 220 film while the D allows for double exposure. I like the light weight and easy of use of a TLR. Yashica's are quite good, but not has good a Rollie. I had a Mamyia C33, but just too heavy so I returned to my old Kowa SLR when I need a long or wide lens in 6X6.

JRJacobs · Jan 22, 2009

I have owned (and still do) a number of TLR's - I love shooting with them. The best lenses are in the Rolleiflex with the Planar or Xenotar type. Tessar or Tessar type lenses are not as far behind as Ian suggests. YashicaMats are good cameras and are lightweight - just make sure you get one with the 4 element lens (Yashinon), and avoid the 124g model - it has way too much plastic and is made much more cheaply than the earlier models. Good YashicaMat models to look for are: EM, LM, Yashica 12, 635, and 124 (not G).

One of my favorite and most used TLR's is the Ricohmatic 225 - a bit harder to find but well worth it. It has a very sharp 4 element lens, 35mm capability, dual lever focus, built-in light meter, a HOT SHOE (rare on a TLR), double exposure capability, and one of the nicest features of all is that closing the hood automatically locks the shutter release button - a feature Rolleiflex could have tried.

Choosing a 6x6 TLR camera. Help!

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