Chinese Knock-offs of Known Darkroom Products: Post your example

Kino · Feb 28, 2020

Nikor Reel copy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/B-W-KING-4...485247?hash=item44538c623f:g:T40AAOSw~gRVlncM

While I have no problem buying well made copies of no-longer produced or otherwise protected apparatus, this is particularly irritating copy in the body of the ad: "The design of the product as well as the logo of B&W KING owns intellectual property rights, ratified by Chinese National Industrial and Commercial Bureau and China's State Intellectual Property Office."

Yeah, the logo is about all that is unique about this product.

What's your take on this?

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 29, 2020

Do they claim to be something else, or do they state it's their own product? Why do you call them cheap copies, not simply copies?

They used to be made with sweat and tears and men had to pull their pants down to complete the day, now they are just made without pants on. Not same quality in many cases, some are actually of very fine quality, but doesn't this apply to pretty much everything else? Aren't some cameras from the past bad copies of some other?

A reel design as far as I know has no existing legal protection, in old days all reels looked nearly identical, yet not all were created equal in users' hands. I see little difference, except the "cheap Chinese" designation which less and less has any factual proof.

AgX · Feb 29, 2020

The point Kino wanted to make, to my understanding, is that for an already existent design, technical or esthetical, one cannot get a patent or other protection (as claimed by that very manufacturer) even if respective rights by others are unvalid meanwhile. (A different case are trade names.)

I would be surprised if the chinese regulatiooms are different, but then they only would apply to China anyway.

Kino · Feb 29, 2020

Witold said:
Do they claim to be something else, or do they state it's their own product? Why do you call them cheap copies, not simply copies?

They used to be made with sweat and tears and men had to pull their pants down to complete the day, now they are just made without pants on. Not same quality in many cases, some are actually of very fine quality, but doesn't this apply to pretty much everything else? Aren't some cameras from the past bad copies of some other?

A reel design as far as I know has no existing legal protection, in old days all reels looked nearly identical, yet not all were created equal in users' hands. I see little difference, except the "cheap Chinese" designation which less and less has any factual proof.

I didn't say cheap; someone else did. $168 USD is not cheap; $10 is cheap...

The point I was trying to make is the hypocrisy of the bold proclamation that they had some sort of intellectual rights on their product, after obviously copying someone else's design. If they had omitted that part of the auction, I would have thought, "Oh, some one is remaking the Nikor 4x5 reel. Neat."; but to jump out and claim ownership of the design is insulting.

Deleted member 88956 · Feb 29, 2020

Well, in order to make a product it does need to go through design stage before production, so this is perhaps semantical difference we could argue. I do not read that as ownership claims to original design, but I can see how others can disagree.

Kino · Feb 29, 2020

It is totally obvious to even the most casual observer that this is a copy of the classic Nikor 4x5 reel.

I guess I am sensitive to this "glory-grabbing" posture, as too many of these sort of people exist in the World. Their contributions are usually the abnormally long period of time they spend documenting their "innovation" while slavishly stealing from the past...

Dmosher · Feb 29, 2020

While I am not familiar with the actual nikkor tank, does it have provision for rotational agitation? This one appears to have the ability to rotate the holder by turning the tab that is in the fill spout. Note the wheels on the bottom of the holder and the way that the lid is separate pieces. The instructions, while somewhat difficult to understand, also seem to indicate a rotational agitation similar to Paterson with the stick..

that seems like a pretty significant improvement that would justify their claims..

choiliefan · Feb 29, 2020

The Nikor reel endpieces are formed SS rather than the cast material of the BW King.
Nikor appears to be spot-welded SS throughout.
BW King uses a bunch of threaded fasteners and spot-welded guides.
Appears to be a lot more difference than the traditional 15% copy threshold.

4season · Feb 29, 2020

If I'm interpreting the ad copy correctly, they're specifically claiming ownership to the way their blackened light trap is made: They avoid the "quench polish quench" process for blackening the metal and use a layer of PTFE instead, in the name of corrosion resistance and avoiding trace substances produced by the older process. Can't be sure but wonder if the reel itself is coated with PTFE too?

btaylor · Feb 29, 2020

From what I have seen the new tank is a bit different from the long discontinued Nikkor tank but uses the same basic concept. He is also producing one for 5x7 which as far as I know no one has done before. He has been redponsive on LFF and his products have gotten good reviews from users. I think it’s great someone decided to re-create a product like this.

Truzi · Feb 29, 2020

I have a new B&W King and recently acquired a nice used Nikkor. I won't have the opportunity to use either for a while, so I won't be able to speak to the quality, but at first blush B&W King seems like a well-made unit.

There are definite differences even though the basic design is quite similar. I question whether those little wheels are a good idea - sometimes simple is better. The B&W King top and bottom plates certainly seem workable, but the Nikkor construction is different and seems a bit more robust. That doesn't mean the B&W King is bad by any stretch of the imagination; it is solid and well made, and for my usage both will likely last forever. The real test for me will be loading both units in a changing bag to see if one is easier.

Having followed the unit for some time I do like that they are constantly improving it - but I have to admit I have no idea whether the improvements are truly significant. Still, it is nice to see a company do this.

As for the patent claim, I chalk that up to translation. I don't think they are claiming ownership of the basic concept, but to the more "modern" additions to it. It would be nice to see more acknowledgment to the original Nikkor, though.

Andrew O'Neill · Feb 29, 2020

Kino said:
Nikor Reel copy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/B-W-KING-4...485247?hash=item44538c623f:g:T40AAOSw~gRVlncM

While I have no problem buying well made copies of no-longer produced or otherwise protected apparatus, this is particularly irritating copy in the body of the ad: "The design of the product as well as the logo of B&W KING owns intellectual property rights, ratified by Chinese National Industrial and Commercial Bureau and China's State Intellectual Property Office."

Yeah, the logo is about all that is unique about this product.

What's your take on this?

It looks well built. I want one.

ic-racer · Feb 29, 2020

Here is a Chinese Knock-off inspired by a Philips Explorer. It is not too bad (I have one...).

Rick A · Feb 29, 2020

Nearly all of my photo gear is very old and not cheap Chinese knock offs. I own a couple of Chinese made salt water rated spinning reels that although "inexpensive" are of quality build and materials. I believe they are of better quality than my Penn reels for half the price, better seals and lighter weight, more bearings, stronger drag system.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 29, 2020

Kino said:
Nikor Reel copy: https://www.ebay.com/itm/B-W-KING-4...485247?hash=item44538c623f:g:T40AAOSw~gRVlncM

While I have no problem buying well made copies of no-longer produced or otherwise protected apparatus, this is particularly irritating copy in the body of the ad: "The design of the product as well as the logo of B&W KING owns intellectual property rights, ratified by Chinese National Industrial and Commercial Bureau and China's State Intellectual Property Office."

Yeah, the logo is about all that is unique about this product.

What's your take on this?

I have no issue with it. Who else would spend the time, effort and money to manufacture such products in this niche market?

Bill Burk · Feb 29, 2020

The BW King is different enough. But I would be alert for possible surge marks near the central spirals. I have a Nikor and can see bands in the middle of the negatives where there is locally “more” agitation thanks to those spirals.

The Nikor lets you adjust height (for different smaller cut film sizes). This one looks dedicated to 4x5. And maybe rotational agitation would help minimize the surge marks I was seeing.

Alan9940 · Feb 29, 2020

I've been using a 4x5 B&W King tank for a couple of years now. Figuring out an agitation method that works for you is crucial to success. I never had any luck with any twisting method of just the reel; I use inversion agitation, but it took several development cycles before I hit on a reliable method to avoid the surge marks that Bill mentions. I really appreciate the fact that it being a stainless steel tank makes the use of a water bath for temperature control very easy and consistent. Certainly a product I'd recommend to any LF photographer.

AnselMortensen · Jun 12, 2020

I have B/W Kings in both 4x5 and 5x7. I use an alternating combination of rotational and inversion agitation...works fine for me.

mgb74 · Jun 12, 2020

Rick A said:
Nearly all of my photo gear is very old and not cheap Chinese knock offs. I own a couple of Chinese made salt water rated spinning reels that although "inexpensive" are of quality build and materials. I believe they are of better quality than my Penn reels for half the price, better seals and lighter weight, more bearings, stronger drag system.

Don't tease us - name them.

Rick A · Jun 13, 2020

mgb74 said:
Don't tease us - name them.

I have a pair of 6000 series Kastking Sharky III live liner reels, the two together cost just under what my Penn Battle II set me back. The Kastkings do double duty for surf fishing and musky, they are much lighter weight than the Penn, I just switch rods. I have a Shimano Bait Runner D as well, I haven't had a chance to try it out,

ColdEye · Jun 13, 2020

Rick A said:
I have a pair of 6000 series Kastking Sharky III live liner reels, the two together cost just under what my Penn Battle II set me back. The Kastkings do double duty for surf fishing and musky, they are much lighter weight than the Penn, I just switch rods. I have a Shimano Bait Runner D as well, I haven't had a chance to try it out,

Kinda off topic, if you need a decent bait feeder try the okuma cdx range. I use them for yellow tail and they can handle some schoolie tuna here. Had it for two years and no issues, not sure about using it in the surf.

Rick A · Jun 14, 2020

ColdEye said:
Kinda off topic, if you need a decent bait feeder try the okuma cdx range. I use them for yellow tail and they can handle some schoolie tuna here. Had it for two years and no issues, not sure about using it in the surf.

I blew up an Okuma reel a couple of years ago dragging a six foot sandbar shark up onto the beach, I really don't blame the reel, probably my tactics at fault.

DREW WILEY · Jun 15, 2020

Ice Racer - I don't recognize your specific camera, but It's my understanding that Chamonix expressly asked permission from Dick Phillips to make a similar design camera. Since he no longer made cameras, he gave them his blessing. But there are real differences too, especially regarding the kind of laminated material involved. They make nice cameras. It's also a small shop product involving quite a bit of hand labor, and hence they are able to do a careful job and honestly market it themselves. That's an entirely different scenario from the shiploads of mass-produced bait and switch Chinese junk being sold under misleading labeling in this country and around the world, and quite often in downright violation of extant patents, of which the shady tactics of big box US distributors tends to be an equally culpable factor. It's not just the Chinese at fault; they're just doing what someone else pays them to do. Darkroom products is a far smaller market, and one would have to look at this issue item by item, specifically. Patents on some of these things might have run out long ago. But me being suspicious of Chinese quality is the rule unless an exception proves otherwise.

Roseha · Jul 7, 2020

Hi, hope this isn't too off topic, but for those using the B and W King 4x5 tank, what capacity of chemicals is necessary for developing? I know they write capacity 1050 ml, but is 1000 ml, or a liter, adequate? I would probably not use the full 10 sheet capacity to start. and can the Nikor reel fit a smaller tank? Thanks

Donald Qualls · Jul 7, 2020

I have a genuine Nikor tank (holds 2x220 stainless reels, which I have, or the 4x5 Nikor carrier, which I don't have). It takes about 1200 ml to fill up completely to the filler. I would tend to believe the manufacturer claim that the B&W King tank wants 1050 ml.

Chinese Knock-offs of Known Darkroom Products: Post your example

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