China copies of Jobo Products

mshchem · Dec 1, 2016

Be aware that there are "counterfeit" "copies" of Jobo 2509n reels being offered for sale. I have no idea who is making them but on auction site it states in the fine print country of origin China. Even the little red plastic tabs are copied. 21 bucks delivered seems like a good deal, maybe it is. I don't like intellectual property theft. I'm so fed up with look alike stuff that disappoints.

I have no idea what the legal side of this is but I know that I don't like it one bit.
Best Mike

Photo Engineer · Dec 1, 2016

If it isn't patented or if the patent has expired, all is legal.

PE

ic-racer · Dec 1, 2016

Why would a counterfeiter go to all that trouble and then put "Made In China" on the item?

mshchem · Dec 1, 2016

ic-racer said:
Why would a counterfeiter go to all that trouble and then put "Made In China" on the item?

I guess it's not a counterfeit . I'm not buying a copy made by persons who are guessing at materials. It should be clearly stated in the header this is not manufactured by Jobo of Germany .
I will buy something that will make me feel great when I use it . I am going to buy a new CPP 3 when I retire in two years . Not because my 25 year old CPP2 has failed it will probaby still be running. I want a new one because the parts and electronic components in the CPP2 are going away. I'm pretty sure that the Jobos will out last me. When you have a true commitment to quality this is the result. Remember the famous Hasselbladski the Kiev 88, what a jewel .
Mike

ic-racer · Dec 2, 2016

mshchem said:
I am going to buy a new CPP 3 when I retire in two years

Yes, I felt the same way with my CPP2 when I got it new. Looking back that is now 17 years ago!

RauschenOderKorn · Dec 2, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
If it isn't patented or if the patent has expired, all is legal.

PE

... except for for selling it as a Jobo 2509n.

Maybe it could be sold as "compatible".

Photo Engineer · Dec 2, 2016

If that name is on it, then it violates a trademark. I have no idea what is on the drums.

PE

AgX · Dec 2, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
If it isn't patented or if the patent has expired, all is legal.

Exactly. They only would be "counterfeit" if designated as being a Jobo one.

Still they could be different and if there is a chance to mix them up with the originals a warning as this thread could be helpful nevertheless.

Harry Stevens · Dec 2, 2016

Surely if you are going to counterfeit a product it would be a mass market product, your not going to get rich selling dodgy reels.......

williaty · Dec 2, 2016

Harry Stevens said:
Surely if you are going to counterfeit a product it would be a mass market product, your not going to get rich selling dodgy reels.......

China has improved something in their production processes that I'm not sure the rest of the world has figured out. Within the last 2 years, I've noticed them knocking off SUBSTANTIALLY narrower-audience products. The counterfit reels discussed here is one example. The one more frustrating to me personally is they've gone from knocking off mass-market pocket knives that sell tens of thousands of units a year (say, Spyderco Paramilitary 2) to art/niche/limited run knives that sell, at absolute most, less than hundred or so a year (Spyderco Vallotton, Hungarian, Bradly, etc).

Given what it costs the rest of us to get tooled up to make something, it would seem to only be economically viable to knock off something that you believe you can sell a whole lot of. The fact that China is now making (honestly quite good) copies of very small market pieces suggests they've got some trick for making small runs more profitable.

AgX · Dec 2, 2016

By the way, the basic patent is from 1970.

AgX · Dec 2, 2016

And maybe the "counterfeits" are actually the same as the originals.

Photo Engineer · Dec 2, 2016

Well, from what I hear, the steel products are quite inferior.

PE

williaty · Dec 2, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Well, from what I hear, the steel products are quite inferior.

PE

Sort of. This is something I've brushed up against having some of the parts I've designed or help designed actually get produced. First of all, the Chinese are perfectly happy to say "Oh, you're shopping solely on price? Here's the cheapest, lowest quality product we know how to make." So when you meet with their product guys and make it clear that price is the reason you're looking for Chinese steel rather than US or German steel, they start showing you the lowest quality stuff they have in order to wow you with the low cost. Second thing is that the Chinese do capitalism better than we do now. Any way they can increase their profit at the expense of the customer is a good idea in their books. So, they firmly believe quality control is your problem. That's not to say they aren't doing QC on their end; they definitely are. They just might choose to save a buck half way through the production run by switching to lower quality materials and it's on you to notice the change. If you're not paying attention and don't catch the parts that are suddenly failing QC on your end, their feeling seems to be that you obviously don't care so why should they? Note that they're like this internally too; it's not a case of "screw the foreigner".

So you can get good stuff out of them so long as you pay them for good quality stuff and then keep an eye on them to make sure they deliver what you agreed on.

Kilgallb · Dec 8, 2016

Poor quality from China is a stereotype. Some of the best quality manufacturing in the world is done in China. I know of what I say having spent 12 years manufacturing in China.

When someone disrespect Chinese industry I just remember my Dad's 1972 Chevy with a klunk in the door. The garage found a Coke bottle inside the door. Does that represent American manufacturing, I think not, nor does a few stereotypical stories about Chinese manufacturing.

Remember where your iPhone is made.

williaty · Dec 8, 2016

Kilgallb said:
When someone disrespect Chinese industry I just remember my Dad's 1972 Chevy with a klunk in the door. The garage found a Coke bottle inside the door. Does that represent American manufacturing, I think not

IMO, that is pretty representative of American manufacturing in the 70s. We were coasting on the better work ethic we had post-war by that point. The only surprise is, coming from the car industry, it wasn't a beer bottle instead.

benjiboy · Dec 8, 2016

The Chinese built The Great Wall Of China and were a highly sophisticated scientific and mercantile society before America existed, and we in Britain were living in mud huts and painting our faces with woad.

mshchem · Dec 9, 2016

Kilgallb said:
Poor quality from China is a stereotype. Some of the best quality manufacturing in the world is done in China. I know of what I say having spent 12 years manufacturing in China.

When someone disrespect Chinese industry I just remember my Dad's 1972 Chevy with a klunk in the door. The garage found a Coke bottle inside the door. Does that represent American manufacturing, I think not, nor does a few stereotypical stories about Chinese manufacturing.

Remember where your iPhone is made.

I had a 70 Nova SS, 350, Turbohydromatic 3 speed auto. Red with a black vinyl roof . Beautiful car . GM sells more cars in China than the US today .
Draw your own conclusions . Peace Mike

Vaughn · Dec 9, 2016

benjiboy said:
The Chinese built The Great Wall Of China and were a highly sophisticated scientific and mercantile society before America existed, and we in Britain were living in mud huts and painting our faces with woad.

The Chinese culturally tend to take quite a fatherly outlook over such young ones such as the European countries -- let alone the USA. Interesting clash of perspectives.

foen · Dec 9, 2016

Can I have the link please? Thank you guys

benjiboy · Dec 9, 2016

Vaughn said:
The Chinese culturally tend to take quite a fatherly outlook over such young ones such as the European countries -- let alone the USA. Interesting clash of perspectives.

It's the ultimate irony, the World's biggest communist country is out capitalising the biggest capitalist country.

guangong · Dec 9, 2016

Getting back to topic about Chinese product quality... it runs the gamut from poor to excellent like most countries. My made in China slitters for Minox and Minolta 16 cameras are so much better in design and construction than anything made by Minox. Adapters, lens covers are fine. I wouldn't buy anything with a lot of moving parts, but then I learned early on to avoid anything British for the same reason. (Remember Lexus Electric, the prince of darkness, the favored electrical supplier for the British automotive industry). About the Jobo reels, the question would seem to revolve on its durability. A Chinese tradition in commerce is to cut corners. If cheap enough try the reels out. If not a gambler, stick to Jobo.

benjiboy · Dec 9, 2016

guangong said:
Getting back to topic about Chinese product quality... it runs the gamut from poor to excellent like most countries. My made in China slitters for Minox and Minolta 16 cameras are so much better in design and construction than anything made by Minox. Adapters, lens covers are fine. I wouldn't buy anything with a lot of moving parts, but then I learned early on to avoid anything British for the same reason. (Remember Lexus Electric, the prince of darkness, the favored electrical supplier for the British automotive industry). About the Jobo reels, the question would seem to revolve on its durability. A Chinese tradition in commerce is to cut corners. If cheap enough try the reels out. If not a gambler, stick to Jobo.

I agree mostly with this post Chinese product quality like any other manufacturing country can vary with the retail price but the Chinese have in recent years invested vast amounts of money in state of the art factories, plant and machinery and modern manufacturing techniques that enable them to produce consumer goods quicker cheaper and more efficiently than we in the west, for example there a medium sized town in a particular province in China that has three huge state of the art factories who employ most of the local population and all the factories make are teddy bears, but they make them by the hundreds of thousands and can afford to sell them at a price we can't compete with.
They are saying all the same things these days about Chinese products they used to say about Japanese ones 30 or 40 years ago, but like the Japanese the Chinese aren't going to be satisfied with cheap end of the market for ever and are just getting their foot in the door until they can get the luxury end of the market.

choiliefan · Dec 9, 2016

guangong said:
Getting back to topic about Chinese product quality... it runs the gamut from poor to excellent like most countries. My made in China slitters for Minox and Minolta 16 cameras are so much better in design and construction than anything made by Minox. Adapters, lens covers are fine. I wouldn't buy anything with a lot of moving parts, but then I learned early on to avoid anything British for the same reason. (Remember Lexus Electric, the prince of darkness, the favored electrical supplier for the British automotive industry). About the Jobo reels, the question would seem to revolve on its durability. A Chinese tradition in commerce is to cut corners. If cheap enough try the reels out. If not a gambler, stick to Jobo.

For those not familiar with British electronic components, the company is actually Lucas Electric. A mechanic acquaintance from Scotland once blew a gasket when I complained about the quality of Lucas parts. He stated Lucas made parts to the specifications given by the contractors. Perhaps Rolls Royce were fitted with higher quality Lucas components than a Morris or Triumph...?

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 9, 2016

benjiboy said:
....They are saying all the same things these days about Chinese products they used to say about Japanese ones 30 or 40 years ago, but like the Japanese the Chinese aren't going to be satisfied with cheap end of the market for ever and are just getting their foot in the door until they can get the luxury end of the market.

Yes but, the difference between the Japanese and the Chinese is that the Japanese think long term, eventually making a buck. China thinks making a buck now.

China copies of Jobo Products

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