Children at sports events

I regularly photograph my daughter and her teammates. She's 8 now, but I've been doing this since she started organized sport (Judo) at age 3. I don't ask permission, nor should I have to. So far, there's been no problems. In fact, I often email pictures of their kids in action to other parents. They like it.

Stever said:

The problem is that a teacher or principal could loose their job, their credientals, and be both criminally and civilly liable for not enforcing the laws.

Steve

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Dear Steve,

No, they're not laws. They're school rules. Unless there are local laws I don't know about. There weren't when I was teaching.

No, you can't lose your credentials for refusing to enforce school rules. That's a state or (in the UK) national matter. If the school pretends this is an excuse for firing you, complain. Get the press on your side.

If they fire you -- well, do you want to cave in to that sort of pressure anyway? It's not a healthy working environment. Do something else.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Anyone who is frightened to stand up and be counted has no right to complain.

Cheers,

Roger

Roger Hicks said:

Dear Steve,

No, they're not laws. They're school rules. Unless there are local laws I don't know about. There weren't when I was teaching.

No, you can't lose your credentials for refusing to enforce school rules. That's a state or (in the UK) national matter. If the school pretends this is an excuse for firing you, complain. Get the press on your side.

If they fire you -- well, do you want to cave in to that sort of pressure anyway? It's not a healthy working environment. Do something else.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Anyone who is frightened to stand up and be counted has no right to complain.

Cheers,

Roger

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It's always easy to risk the other guy's job.

Roger Hicks said:

Dear Steve,

No, they're not laws. They're school rules. Unless there are local laws I don't know about. There weren't when I was teaching.

No, you can't lose your credentials for refusing to enforce school rules. That's a state or (in the UK) national matter. If the school pretends this is an excuse for firing you, complain. Get the press on your side.

If they fire you -- well, do you want to cave in to that sort of pressure anyway? It's not a healthy working environment. Do something else.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Anyone who is frightened to stand up and be counted has no right to complain.

Cheers,

Roger

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At least in California, if it happens while school is in session on school property and especially if it deals with safety, then the principal is responsibility if they did not follow the laws. In fact as I understand it the laws are real harsh if photos without releases on school grounds [fill in conditions above] and are published [including on the internet] if at the time they were taken the principal was aware and did not stop the photographer and report it to both the school police and the local police.

Steve

Steve,

Is it about taking photographs or about publishing them? A law controlling publishing does not necessarily give control about photographs being taken. This could seem splitting hairs, but, still, is the situation here.

For the rest, laws and regulations are not worth much the moment one is intimidated...

To be fair I can se both sides to this. Roger, my concern would be that the state/councils are riddled with utter buffoons that think that pressing home a 'really important' case of inappropriate teacher bevaviour (such as the example given) is what they are there for. Sadly the police have taken up the same role. I would say Roger is right in that we are in this predicament precisely because people did not say 'shove your idiotic rules' a decade ago and now it has bcome so institutionalised (perhaps not in law) that the consequences of dissent are genuinley severe for the person who challenges the unchallengeable wisdom of these fools. A friend of mine told me about his home inspection when he applied to adopt a child (which is a very lengthy and painful process I hear). He was give a list home 'home modifications' that would have cost many thousands of pounds (were it not for the fact that he was a builder) and which for the life of him, he could not understand. The inspector seemed to have it in his head that the house needed to be adapted for a physically able child in the same way one would expect for a physically handicaped child wtih special needs. The stairs were too dangerous (never mind that stair gates exist), angles were wrong...banisters needed changing...doors moving...I shit you not. The last I heard was him being in a state of shock, not wanting to give up on adopting but not wanting to sign up to this ridiculous, humiliating and unneccessary nonsense. I think we would all agree the children are far better off under state care where there are no sharp edges and a perpetual smell of bleach than in this unprepared idiots deathtrap of a home...

I would say that Roger is right in that the media must not be underestimated. They are generally on the side of common sense and will normally champion a person being shafted unfairly. one just has to play the right cards. Councils etc quickly back off when the 'people revolt'.

Do we really think that denying a child physical contact from a teacher is a good thing? (apart from being smacked and generally physically readjusted )I remember teachers taking my hand, being compassionate as well as severe. This was a reflection of the real world. Thankfully I had loving parents but some children dont. Heaven knows the damage that a complete lack of physical contact at school does to those that are crying out for it. It does not take much, but kind words and smiles are not the same. I was mightily pleased to see that the village school my kids just started at are very personal and DO touch the children and had a sense of normality about it. My son was very much reassured by the warmth this imparted when he joined. Maybe other teachers were in full view, I dont know.

I am very much an advocate of innocent until proven guilty. Teachers, carers etc who abuse their responsibility should be metered out the most severe of punishments, rather than spreading this out thinly, in advance, over all the pupils. unfortunately teh same idiotic state that cares for our children so much seems to be incapable of properly dealing with the unpleasant types they purport to be protecting us from and woe betide any citizen that 'takes their (the state's) law into their own hands'. In the UK we seem to have forgotten that 'common law' is OURS, applied on OUR behalf by the state. WE own it and the state is beholdent to US, not the other way round. Sadly this wonderful relationship has been distorted in the last 15 years and we are becoming incresingly accountable to our state masters and many dont seem to have realised just what is happening. however, many citizens have also forgotten their obligations and look to the Government 'to do something' in the same way fish swim about near the surface at feeding time. They are a product of the state deciding back in the 60s that they would assume the role of all knowing master and organiser and play both sides; displaying irritation when the Govt tells them what to do, yet complaining that the Govt is responsible for their house burning down when they granted an import license to the fireworks company who provided the fireworks, which they stored on top of their cooker, along with their firelighters and matches

Well said Tom, my wife is a teacher of 5-11 year olds, the younger children are given a big cuddly bear to hug when they are upset, hands are held and a comforting arm may be put around the childs shoulder. Sitting a child on your knee or giving them a big hug is crossing the line for most teachers. My wife had to teach sex education to the 10-11 year olds last week, it was based on relationships and awareness of physical change during adolescence. The big question is at what age should children be made aware of inappropiate touching. The subject of sex education at school reminded me of my schools efforts in the early 70s. I seem to remember a super 8 film of Penelopy Keith pointing to various sketches of body parts on a flip chart. She went on to describe ones genitals in her ever so upper class accent, it was a total disaster the whole class erupted in fits of laughter. Its no better today, the kids are shown a cartoon dvd in which a man chases a woman around the house with a purple feather to explain tenderness and arousel. After many red faces and much laughter one kid asked, please miss where do you get them feathers from and can anyone buy them?

It does not matter, a school administrator is STILL responsible for the safety of the children and the STILL have to deal with the problem of outside photographers.

Steve

Stever said:

It does not matter, a school administrator is STILL responsible for the safety of the children and the STILL have to deal with the problem of outside photographers.

Steve

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You are quite right. BUT:

Maintaining the safety of the children does not mean banning photography, nor is there necessarily a problem with outside photographers.

Allow your opponents to set the rules, without fighting back, and you are inviting a crushing defeat.

Cheers,

Roger

Now, with all of the discussion, debate, argument, exposition, diatribe, elucidation, education, enlightenment, humor, saddness, frustration and every thing else that's been posted in this thread - I have one question.

Has anyone seen a follow up post by the OP?

Perhaps we can agree on a "third way"? Ban children. Or the Swiftian approach of devouring them.

Terence said:

Perhaps we can agree on a "third way"? Ban children. Or the Swiftian approach of devouring them.

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Broiled, boiled or deep fried, the only remaining question is; do they taste any good?

I was thinking of a grilled, au poivre dish. Or perhaps a simple whiskey-ppercorn sauce instead.

The OP had nothing to do with "outside photographers". This is a parent wanting to take photos of their kid playing sports. I used to take lots of photos of my daughter playing soccer. Nobody complained for several seasons. Then this spring the league moved to the Balloon Fiesta Park. Now every weekend there are games but also there are usually other events taking place. When they are, the dreaded Albuquerque Police are there in force. So now I leave the camera at home, rather than rick being handcuffed, pepper sprayed, or have a tazer used on me.

This whole thing has gotten rediculous. We have idiot elected officials catering to hysteria and even feeding it. They send their "goons in blue" out to enforce laws that aren't even on the books. The whole thing is rather sad. I for one don't take my camera much anymore for fear of repression.

nc5p said:

....... We have idiot elected officials catering to hysteria and even feeding it. They send their "goons in blue" out to enforce laws that aren't even on the books. ....

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Precisely. Until people realise that the government is there at our behest and the police only enforce the laws under the mandate given to them by officials we elect, we are in trouble. We are far from powerless, but need to spread the word. Common sense is achievable. We need to start by not jumping on bandwagons and punishing/humiliating the officials who seek to enforce this 'new wisdom'.

nc5p said:

. . . laws that aren't even on the books . . .

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Famously, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and this is normally used to justify prosecuting those who didn't know they were breaking the law.

But it can also be used against those who try to enforce 'laws' that don't exist. You can have them for false imprisonment and indeed possibly assault. And indeed unlawful dismissal (some of the teacher stories). It might be worth trying...

In the USA there's the ACLU; I don't know of similar organizations elsewhere but I assume they exist.

Cheers,

Roger (LL.B.!)

copake_ham said:

Has anyone seen a follow up post by the OP?

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WHO?

BrianShaw said:

WHO?

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Poor old bogeyes.

Joe Lipka said:

In our community the various neighborhood pools have a recreational swimming league during the summer months. I was the "official team photographer" with the assignment of creating a slide show (told you it was a long time ago) at the season ending team banquet. The age groups were 5 and under to 15-18 years old, both boys and girls. I had a great deal of fun doing this. With all the attention paid to child predators and other unsavory folk, I don't think they take pictures of the swim meets anymore. Too bad, lots of childhood memories lost to PC.

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We're in a similar (but larger) league, and we have a couple of "semi-official" photographers. We also encourage all of the parents to take photos of their own kids and others and submit them for our (digital) slide show at the awards banquet. We even have the occasional daily/weekly newspaper photographer show up, and no one complains. A sporting event without parents carrying still/video cameras would be bizarre.

moose10101 said:

We're in a similar (but larger) league, and we have a couple of "semi-official" photographers. We also encourage all of the parents to take photos of their own kids and others and submit them for our (digital) slide show at the awards banquet. We even have the occasional daily/weekly newspaper photographer show up, and no one complains. A sporting event without parents carrying still/video cameras would be bizarre.

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Moose,

You're bringing a point of sanity into this bizarre thread of rant?

How dare you! It's like giving folks here a dose of reality treatment. Someone might have a breakdown or something worse!

BTW: thanks,